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Favorite OL This Year

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  • #31
    Originally posted by compaqnigg View Post
    I was taught in debate class when someone laughs or makes a negative comment as a response, it is a sign of losing a debate. It means they have no real response or way of proving you wrong. I give data and evidence.
    You are correct that I am unable to formulate a response to your post. So then by your "master" logic, you have won the debate. Congrats.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
      You are correct that I am unable to formulate a response to your post. So then by your "master" logic, you have won the debate. Congrats.
      I rather share this victorious moment with you. This beer is for you my friend. :-)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
        I would rank them: Ram, Lamp and then Bolles a distant 3rd.

        What about Cam Robinson? I might take him over all of them if he somehow slips to 23
        I agree --- I think Robinson is a possibility. Really depends on how they feel about him and if they are comfortable with the gun possession charge he dealt with prior to last year.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by compaqnigg View Post
          ? Statistically if you run a 5.3 40 and you are a Tackle the chances of you being a dominate Tackle in the NFL is slim. The stats prove this.
          Yes, there's a common thread between the best players to ever play the position. They were absolute freak athletes. I don't think anyone would deny that. I would deny that the 40 has any bearing on how fast you can get into your pass set. While yes, the best of the best were on another level athletically, their 40 yard dashes aren't what we should use a forecast for others at the position.

          There's been plenty of fast 40 guys who have busted, just like slow 40 guys. Greg Robinson had one of the best combines ever for an offensive lineman and hasn't lived up to his billing at all. Fisher has improved, but certainly hasn't lived up to the draft hype. Jake Fisher ran really well, but it's been 2 years and he hasn't even seen the field.

          Guys don't fail in the NFL because their 40 yard dash wasn't fast enough. Yes, the greatest at the position generally had good 40 times as well. But I don't believe it's a good forecast in general. Flowers' has no issue meeting the DE to the edge. He has a very explosive pass set. He just panics and throws all technique out the window at the point of impact. He has no issues getting there.

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          • #35
            I'm intrigued by Lamp and if Giants love him and pick him --- yea!

            That said - much of Lamp's reputation is built on his great (1) game against Alabama and his blocking of T-Williams (BAMA LB).

            C-Robinson on the other hand has 3 plus years blocking SEC pass rushers. Early in this draft process he was a clear top 10 guy but now has slipped ---- maybe too far.

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            • #36
              Keep in mind a lot of people projected Flowers to be a right tackle, citing he was young and still had some improving to do before he could become a legit LT. Maybe he makes those improvements this off season. I think Cam would handle speed rushers better. He has better bend, and seems to have quicker feet. He draws too many false start penalties though and needs to improve there. One thing to note is that Cam got it done in the SEC. Flowers came from the ACC and didn't face the level of defenses Cam went up against. The Giants have met with Cam, so he's definitely being considered.

              I know there are some valid concerns, but if we don't go OT in the first or 2nd, I really like Antonio Garcia. Short arms and slightly undersized, but his athleticism is really impressive. You can watch his game against Clemson and see how he does against the National Champs.
              2017 Mock Draft (Pre-combine / FA):

              Rd 1: OJ Howard (TE, Alabama)
              Rd 2: Tanoh Kpassagnon (DE, Villanova)
              Rd 3: Antonio Garcia (OT, Troy)
              Rd 4: Samaje Perine (RB, Oklahoma)
              Rd 5: Davis Webb (QB, Cal)
              Rd 6: Ahkello Witherspoon (CB, Colorado)
              Rd 7: DJ Jones (DT, Ole Miss)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by fifthavephil View Post
                Lamp may be the safest pick can play OT or guard. Ram man is my preference. He looks and plays both run and pass well. Bolles if it takes time to learn can be 27 or 28 yrs old.
                Bengals lost Zeitler and Withworth which makes me believe they can draft Ramcyzk. Denver even with Okung they still thin on OL. So we not have to make that choice.i. If, Lamp and Ramcyzk are gone. Iwould take BPA and hope Dawkins is there in the second round.
                I agree that Lamp is probably the safest pick, but we need an OT and, although I think he can play it, he is still probably better suited at guard.

                Pure BPA:
                1. Lamp
                2. Ramcyzk
                3. Cam Robinson
                4. Bolles (see him as too much of a project)

                But I would probably take Ram over Lamp due to our needs..
                1. Ryan Ramcyzk, OT, Wisconsin
                2. Zach Cunningham, LB, Vanderbilt
                3. Dalvin Tomlinson, DT, Alabama
                4. Samaje Perine, RB, Oklahoma

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by BleedingBlue123 View Post
                  I'm intrigued by Lamp and if Giants love him and pick him --- yea!

                  That said - much of Lamp's reputation is built on his great (1) game against Alabama and his blocking of T-Williams (BAMA LB).

                  C-Robinson on the other hand has 3 plus years blocking SEC pass rushers. Early in this draft process he was a clear top 10 guy but now has slipped ---- maybe too far.
                  I would be fine if either was our choice in the 1st.
                  1. Ryan Ramcyzk, OT, Wisconsin
                  2. Zach Cunningham, LB, Vanderbilt
                  3. Dalvin Tomlinson, DT, Alabama
                  4. Samaje Perine, RB, Oklahoma

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by EliIsTheBaas View Post
                    There's been plenty of fast 40 guys who have busted, just like slow 40 guys. Greg Robinson had one of the best combines ever for an offensive lineman and hasn't lived up to his billing at all. Fisher has improved, but certainly hasn't lived up to the draft hype. Jake Fisher ran really well, but it's been 2 years and he hasn't even seen the field.

                    Guys don't fail in the NFL because their 40 yard dash wasn't fast enough. Yes, the greatest at the position generally had good 40 times as well. But I don't believe it's a good forecast in general. Flowers' has no issue meeting the DE to the edge. He has a very explosive pass set. He just panics and throws all technique out the window at the point of impact. He has no issues getting there.
                    Greg Robinson is one of the anomalies for sure. Eric Fisher has been rated quite high by PFF in his 2016 performance for run blocking. Listing him as the 11th best run blocker in the league. His pass blocking could use work. Here's their 2016 rankings: https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro...s-this-season/. Jake Fisher was a 2nd round draft choice, I wouldn't add him to the list of "top prospects". You can't teach speed, but you can teach fundamentals. None of the top prospects in 2015 ran a sub 5.0, 40 yard dash. Brandon Scherff was very close to that mark but he doesn't play tackle but rather guard. All of the tackles in 2013 have not been highly rated. That is Andrus Peat, Ereck Flowers, D.J. Humphries, and Cedric Ogbuehi (Ogbuehi was benched, Peat has been moved around because he isn't effective).

                    Originally posted by poppa smurph View Post
                    Okay....I'll bite.

                    First off, logically, the 10 yard split from the 40 is far more important when forecasting a speed rush.

                    An Olinemans 40 means absolutely nothing in regards to pass protection unless we're using the 28 and a half step drop.

                    Flowers has issues getting upright to quickly that effect his change of direction more then his "slow feet" which still plague him today.

                    At any rate, your use of logic in defending your point of 40 times running forward somehow correlating to pass protection skill moving backwards is quite, illogical.
                    I'd agree that the 10 yard split is probably a more important figure to cite. Only if it was easy to find that information for each player. I'd love to see them for past draft selections. Also logically, if your 10 yard split is fast your 40 time is going to be faster. That tells me that you are able to get to top speed in a quick amount of time. If we had two objects that move at a constant max speed of 100mph (lets say a drag race) and one car was able to get from 0-100 in a faster amount of time, that car would win every time. Thus its "40 time" would be faster. Of course the variable with football players racing is that the top speed can differ. To me it is all relative though. Show me a guy with a fast 10 yard split and is bad at 3 cone drill or other movement drills. I'm talking about really poor. I'm just not going to believe it. I'd believe that the guy has a nagging injury or slipped in the drill, rather than him not being able to move quickly. In summary: if your 10 yard split is fast, your 40 time will be fast. If your 40 time is fast, your other movements (back peddling, slide steps, etc) will be fast too. If you are able to do all of those things you are an athlete. Athletes tend to have better balance, weight distribution, and flexibility. if they didn't they wouldn't have fast 10 yard splits, fast 40s, and fast miscellaneous movements. That's my point.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by compaqnigg View Post
                      You pretty much made my point. Joe Thomas with a 4.98 40 is very fast for an OL (but he actually ran a 4.92 at the combine) and David Bakhtiari actually ran a 5.09.. nice try with the "alternative facts" with your fake times. Both of those 40 times are good. Sub 5 seconds is ideal as Mike Mayock says, Bakhtiari was a little bit off from that. So 40 times have nothing to do with slide stepping? So you are saying there are very fast runners who can't side step quickly. I'd love to see that.

                      You are talking to someone who played basketball their entire life. I know all about slide stepping... you do it every time on defense. Bring someone out to the 3 point line who runs a 5.3 in a 40 yard dash against a player who runs a 4.6 and there is no way that 5.3 player is stopping that 4.6 guy from getting to the basket. Been there done that my friend. 5.3 is not going to slide fast enough to stop the 4.6 guy from getting past him. 5.3, 40 time is like a slow center and 4.6 is like a quick shooting guard. That removes the hands out the equation (can't touch in basketball). Now that NFL player in the 5.3 time is going to start getting grabby after awhile once he gets beaten a few times by pure speed. The 4.6 guy has the advantage. Remember Michael Strahan in his prime? He was a master in mind games. He would confuse the OL into thinking he was going to beat them with pure speed, they would try sliding as fast as they could, then he would bull rush them by using their momentum to push them back.

                      Flowers has bad feet my friend. He gets beat so much with speed then he starts grabbing and gets holding penalties. He should be a guard not a LT. I guess we can disagree but I don't see Flowers getting any better at LT. These guys in the NFL are getting faster and faster. Jadeveon Clowney ran a ridiculous 4.53 a few years ago. The 40 time record was broken this year at the combine. You mind as well be a dinosaur running a 5.3 on the O-line. Look at all of these top OL prospects being busts. Luke Joeckel (2nd pick in 2013) has been a bust (he ran a 5.3). D.J. Fluker ran a 5.3 at the combine (11th overall pick). Ereck Flowers ran a 5.3 in the 40. Riley Reiff ran a 5.23 (not quite 5.3) and he's been mediocre (but he was selected number 23 overall not as high as others). I went back all the way to 2013 looking all of the top OL prospects just for fun and there is one thing in common that I see (look for yourself). All of the top TACKLE prospects that ran a 5.3 have not lived up to their draft selection. Meanwhile almost every top TACKLE prospect that has ran a sub 5 second 40 has. I kid you not. Go check it out if you don't believe me. See a common theme here with slow 40 times? Statistically if you run a 5.3 40 and you are a Tackle the chances of you being a dominate Tackle in the NFL is slim. The stats prove this.
                      The master of logic has "nigg" in his handle? That's a stretch, just sayin

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DandyDon View Post
                        The master of logic has "nigg" in his handle? That's a stretch, just sayin
                        So you read all of that post and that's what you came up with. Wow. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? You talk about something you don't know about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigg,_Highland

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by compaqnigg View Post
                          You can't be serious can you? I'm a master of logic TCHOF, you don't want to go down this path. Logic point #1 at what point does a person's speed come into factor? If you run a 6.4, 40 yard dash and I run a 4.6, 40 yard dash does that have any impact on me getting around you? I think we would be brainless if we said no. I always get a good chuckle when I hear people say: "But its the technique!" like technique solves everything. It doesn't, and that's a sad excuse to circumvent the real issue at hand. So since we establish that 40 time DOES matter, the real question is: At what speed deferential causes a significant advantage? That is subjective without substantial evidence, but I'd say if you ran a 5.3, 40 yard dash and I run a 4.6 yard dash I have an incredible advantage over you. Why does a 40 yard dash matter?

                          Because that tells me that you will be quicker in every other foot speed drill. Some people are more visual learners rather than using reasoning. So in that case, let me show you exhibit A: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combin...ombine-Workout Watch the 34 second mark. Watch that drill of Ereck Flowers at the combine. That says it all doesn't it? Watch that guy blow by him in that drill. That guy who's running past him isn't even close to the fastest DEs in the NFL. If you watch the 54 second clip in that video, Ereck can't even keep the man in front of him. That guy keeps on running outside of his reach over and over again. Not only is Ereck's foot speed slow, he doesn't have a good change of direction either as seen in the drill at the 12 second mark. He transfers his weight incorrectly in his feet which causes balancing issues. Athletes aren't taught this, it's a natural ability to run and maneuver yourself. Just like you can't teach someone to have a 36 inch vertical. You can show them the "technique" of how you jump but if you don't have the fast twitch muscle fibers, you aren't going anywhere. I want to show you the same drills that Ereck Flowers is doing but with Garrett Bolles doing them. The video exists, I saw it earlier today but I can't find it on NFL.com. You are going to have to take my word for it but the drill I showed above at the 34 second mark above, when Garrett Bolles does it, his man never makes it past him. That's how fast his foot speed is. His change of direction is lightening quick compared to Ereck Flowers too (12 second mark in the Ereck Flowers video).

                          Your logic has holes in it. A dancer is not a track sprinter and is not trained for sprinting speed. None the less a dancers foot speed, leg and foot placement coordination are far beyond what a track sprinter would be able to achieve. You are confusing speed with muscle memory otherwise known as "Technique" It is not the big chuckle as your master logic would convey.
                          The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by compaqnigg View Post
                            So you read all of that post and that's what you came up with. Wow. Ignorance is bliss isn't it? You talk about something you don't know about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigg,_Highland
                            I don't read your walls of text. When you start a post claiming "I'm a master of logic" but you don't even understand how to type paragraphs it's enough for me to dismiss your opinion.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DandyDon View Post
                              I don't read your walls of text. When you start a post claiming "I'm a master of logic" but you don't even understand how to type paragraphs it's enough for me to dismiss your opinion.
                              You must have a low attention span. How's this for logic? If I put more spacing in my paragraphs, and that causes you to read the entire post, that still means that you read the same amount of text. lol, some of you guys are hilarious to me. Is that you Donald J? hahaha! Time for nap time Dandy. You need more energy.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
                                Lol
                                40 times do show an explosion ability tho. It speaks to athleticism.
                                Typically these guys are mammoths. So being able to run 5.0 or under I think I saw an equivalency measurement tho like where a 300 pound 6 foot 6 guy doing that is equal to like a 5 foot 11 guy running a 4.48.

                                By the way, "what a shocker" on who is going around action superior outright dismissing people for not being logical, while LITERALLY speaking to a refusal to read, due to paragraph length. Now that's frigging hilarious.

                                It's also a logical fallacy. Which again, isn't a surprise considering.

                                But if anyone wishes to discuss the merits of the 40 and how it is something scouts still pay attention to, and why, for OL I'd be glad to continue that.

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