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  • Biggest issue



    Besides injuries, is our horrible run game. In order for this team to be successful in the postseason, or even the end of the reg season, we must be able to run.




    I dont care if Eli is having a great year. If we cant run, we cant win.




    Our last 3 games are in the Meadowlands. We all know what that means. Swirling winds and cold / snowy / sleety weather. If you keep wondering why Eli and the Giants keep struggling down the stretch with this group of coaches, you cant see it. Gilbride and Reese turned this team into a Pass first, Pass second team by continually ignoring run blocking olman in FA and the draft, and the type of offense put in place.And while it works at times and is getting Eli to a great top 5 level this season, and helping our WRs look great stat wise,it is hurting the team.




    We are DEAD LAST IN YARDS PER RUSH AND YARDS RUSHING PER GAME IN THE NFL! Worse then the Rams, worse then the Dolphins, worse then the Colts, worse then the Jags, worse then the Cards! LAST PLACE! That right there should get someone canned. This is not Giants football we are playing. Id say we are playing Charger football right now but instead of being in sunny San Diego where the weather wont effect the fantastic air display, we are in NY/NJ where it is widy, cold, icy, rainy. snowy, and at times flat out dumb to pass the ball.




    They need to figure out a way to get the run game going and stay with it in order to win in January. Last week we looked better, but Gilbride pulls the plug early of course and gets pass happy.




    Our leading rusher might not top 600 yards this year.


  • #2
    Re: Biggest issue



    I agree with you whole-heartedly. Giants football is exactly what you describe and in my heart of hearts what I prefer.




    However, the pass happy style is not unsuccessful in this league in its current state. Look at Green Bay, look at New Orleans and look at New England and GB and NE play in hideous weatheras well and their run games are non-existant at times. Personally I'd like a Steelers style in all phaseshere in NY but even they have become more of a pass first offense in recent years and they too play in poor weather conditions and often abandon the run.




    Attempts Stats:




    Steelers: 14th




    Pats: 15th




    GB: 22nd




    Saints: 21st




    Yards/Carry Stats:




    Steelers: 14th




    Pats: 19th




    GB: 27th




    Saints: 4th




    These are the teams that are consistently tops in the leaguein wins and Championshipsin recent years not to mention the Colts with Peyton healthy who I left out of the stat analysis from this year for obvious reasons. Theycan't run the ball consistently at all for what pretty much has been a decade and they've won more than anyone up until this season.

    Over 7000 posts, advanced member, joined March 2002. 1st post (as anonymous) was the day after Super Bowl 35

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Biggest issue

      [quote user="repeatchamps"]


      I agree with you whole-heartedly. Giants football is exactly what you describe and in my heart of hearts what I prefer.




      However, the pass happy style is not unsuccessful in this league in its current state. Look at Green Bay, look at New Orleans and look at New England and GB and NE play in hideous weatheras well and their run games are non-existant at times. Personally I'd like a Steelers style in all phaseshere in NY but even they have become more of a pass first offense in recent years and they too play in poor weather conditions and often abandon the run.




      [/quote]




      Honestly, dont care what people say, Eli is not Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees (the 3 teamsQBsyou mentioned.) The offenses run in GB and NO are simply amazing, and they have amazing QBs to run it. We dont have the personel or coaching they have, although we are trying to run the same style offense right now. BUT, we are getting out of our element of Giants Football, which is Blue collar, build the trenches, smash mouth, ground and pound, agressive defense style of play. We are the exact opposite. Our defense is read and react, and our run game is shotgun draw. That will never work for this team. Remember a few years ago when we were winning the division and in the playoffs every year? We had 2 - 1000 yard rushers, and a ferocious defense. Thats why we were winning. Its nice to finally see Eli emerge as a top QB in the league, but it is hurting this teams chances. The offense goes for the huge plays, which keeps our defense on the field way to long most the game and they wear down.




      We dont have the fire power to out score GB or NO in a shootout.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Biggest issue

        [quote user="TuckYou"]


        Besides injuries, is our horrible run game. In order for this team to be successful in the postseason, or even the end of the reg season, we must be able to run.




        I dont care if Eli is having a great year. If we cant run, we cant win.




        Our last 3 games are in the Meadowlands. We all know what that means. Swirling winds and cold / snowy / sleety weather. If you keep wondering why Eli and the Giants keep struggling down the stretch with this group of coaches, you cant see it. Gilbride and Reese turned this team into a Pass first, Pass second team by continually ignoring run blocking olman in FA and the draft, and the type of offense put in place.And while it works at times and is getting Eli to a great top 5 level this season, and helping our WRs look great stat wise,it is hurting the team.




        We are DEAD LAST IN YARDS PER RUSH AND YARDS RUSHING PER GAME IN THE NFL! Worse then the Rams, worse then the Dolphins, worse then the Colts, worse then the Jags, worse then the Cards! LAST PLACE! That right there should get someone canned. This is not Giants football we are playing. Id say we are playing Charger football right now but instead of being in sunny San Diego where the weather wont effect the fantastic air display, we are in NY/NJ where it is widy, cold, icy, rainy. snowy, and at times flat out dumb to pass the ball.




        They need to figure out a way to get the run game going and stay with it in order to win in January. Last week we looked better, but Gilbride pulls the plug early of course and gets pass happy.




        Our leading rusher might not top 600 yards this year.




        [/quote]




        no doubt...




        the game vs the Pack was a rare Giants 100 yearder......cant believe I am even saying that.




        Its funny though because Eli still uses the play action with regular success. So even the threat to run nis working for them. But as you say....if they cant step up the run game its going to be hard to have any success going further.

        "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
        You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Biggest issue

          [quote user="TuckYou"][quote user="repeatchamps"]


          I agree with you whole-heartedly. Giants football is exactly what you describe and in my heart of hearts what I prefer.




          However, the pass happy style is not unsuccessful in this league in its current state. Look at Green Bay, look at New Orleans and look at New England and GB and NE play in hideous weatheras well and their run games are non-existant at times. Personally I'd like a Steelers style in all phaseshere in NY but even they have become more of a pass first offense in recent years and they too play in poor weather conditions and often abandon the run.




          [/quote]




          Honestly, dont care what people say, Eli is not Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees (the 3 teamsQBsyou mentioned.) The offenses run in GB and NO are simply amazing, and they have amazing QBs to run it. We dont have the personel or coaching they have, although we are trying to run the same style offense right now. BUT, we are getting out of our element of Giants Football, which is Blue collar, build the trenches, smash mouth, ground and pound, agressive defense style of play. We are the exact opposite. Our defense is read and react, and our run game is shotgun draw. That will never work for this team. Remember a few years ago when we were winning the division and in the playoffs every year? We had 2 - 1000 yard rushers, and a ferocious defense. Thats why we were winning. Its nice to finally see Eli emerge as a top QB in the league, but it is hurting this teams chances. The offense goes for the huge plays, which keeps our defense on the field way to long most the game and they wear down.




          We dont have the fire power to out score GB or NO in a shootout.




          [/quote]




          Again I don't disagree, but that style is successful in today's NFL and guess what it is more successful for longer stretches of time than the Giants have been successful under Coughlin. I totally agree that these other teams are better coached have more suitable personnel from anoffensive scheme perspective.However, let's look at it anywaystarting in Eli's 1st season as starter and compare NE, Pittsburgh and Indy (winningest teams in this stretch).




          At the end of the day my opinion will always be defense wins games andchampionships but here's the offensive stats that reflect scheme best imo:




          Pass attempts, Rush Attempts, Points, Record




          2005:




          Giants: 558, 469, 422 Record: 11-5 division champs out in 1st round




          Pats: 564, 439, 379 Record: 10-6 division champs out in 2nd round




          Indy: 515, 465, 439 Record: 14-2 division champs, #1 seedout in AFC Title game




          Pittsburgh: 379, 549, 389 Record: 11-5, division champs, Super Bowl Champs




          2006:




          Giants: 523, 455,355 Record:8-8 road wild card out in 1st round




          Pats: 527, 499, 385 Record: 12-4 division champs out in AFC title game




          Indy: 557, 439, 427 Record: 12-4 division champs,#1 seed,Super Bowl Champs




          Pittsburgh: 523, 469, 353 Record: 8-8, miss playoffs




          2007:




          Giants: 544, 469,373 Record:10-6 road wild card, Super Bowl Champs




          Pats: 586, 451,589 Record: 16-0 division champs, #1 seed,AFC Champs, lose Super Bowl




          Indy: 551, 446, 450 Record: 13-3 division champs, out in 1st round




          Pittsburgh: 442, 511, 393 Record: 10-6, division champs out in 1st round




          2008:




          Giants: 491, 502,427 Record:12-4 division champs, #1 seed, out in 1st round




          Pats: 534, 513,410 Record: 11-5 without Brady, miss playoffs




          Indy: 585, 370,377 Record: 12-4 home wild card team, out in 1st round




          Pittsburgh: 506, 460, 347 Record: 12-4, division champs #1 seed, Super Bowl Champs




          2009:




          Giants: 542, 443, 402 Record: 8-8, miss playoffs




          Pats: 592, 466, 427 Record: 10-6 division champs, out in 1st round




          Indy: 601, 366, 416 Record: 14-2, division champs, #1 Seed, AFC Champs, lose Super Bowl




          Pittsburgh: 536, 428, 368 Record: 9-7, miss playoffs




          2010:




          Giants: 539, 480,394 Record: 10-6 miss playoffs




          Pats: 507, 454,518 Record: 14-2, division champs, #1 Seed, out 2nd round




          Indy: 679, 393, 435 Record: 10-6, division champs, out 1st round




          Pittsburgh: 479, 471, 375 Record: 12-4, division champs, #2 Seed, AFC Champs, lose Super Bowl




          Pass to Run Ratios:




          2005:




          Giants=46% run, 54% pass




          Pats=44% run, 56% pass




          Indy=47% run, 53% pass




          Steelers=59% run, 41% pass




          2006:




          Giants=47% run, 53% pass




          Pats=48% run, 52% pass




          Indy=44% run, 56% pass




          Steelers=47% run, 53% pass




          2007:




          Giants=46% run, 54% pass




          Pats=43% run, 57% pass




          Indy=45% run, 55% pass




          Steelers=46% run, 54% pass




          2008:




          Giants=51% run, 49% pass




          Pats=49% run, 51% pass




          Indy=39% run, 61% pass




          Steelers=48% run, 52% pass




          2009:




          Giants=45% run, 55% pass




          Pats=44% run, 56% pass




          Indy=38% run, 62% pass




          Steelers=44% run, 56% pass




          2010:




          Giants=47% run, 53% pass




          Pats=47% run, 53% pass




          Indy=37% run, 63% pass




          Steelers=50% run, 50% pass

          Over 7000 posts, advanced member, joined March 2002. 1st post (as anonymous) was the day after Super Bowl 35

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Biggest issue

            The common denominator in all those stats I posted aboveis year in-year outthe Giants just rarely score as much points as the Pats, Steelers and Colts and obviously win less because of that. Maybe it is not the distribution of run-pass but the inability to put up enough points to win more games. Considering the Giants averagearound the mid-20's ever year, it speaks volumes about the Giants defense. Either they are not getting enough opportunities or when the offense has had enoughopportunities they don't score often enough due to bad field position (which is partly the fault of special teams as well) or poor execution and play-callingin the red zone or anywhere on the field for that matter. It also could be that the defense gives up too many points (and consequently more opportunities for the opponent)for the offense to overcome. The other issue is turnovers which messes up everything as well.
            Over 7000 posts, advanced member, joined March 2002. 1st post (as anonymous) was the day after Super Bowl 35

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Biggest issue

              [quote user="TuckYou"]


              Besides injuries, is our horrible run game. In order for this team to be successful in the postseason, or even the end of the reg season, we must be able to run.




              I dont care if Eli is having a great year. If we cant run, we cant win.




              Our last 3 games are in the Meadowlands. We all know what that means. Swirling winds and cold / snowy / sleety weather. If you keep wondering why Eli and the Giants keep struggling down the stretch with this group of coaches, you cant see it. Gilbride and Reese turned this team into a Pass first, Pass second team by continually ignoring run blocking olman in FA and the draft, and the type of offense put in place.And while it works at times and is getting Eli to a great top 5 level this season, and helping our WRs look great stat wise,it is hurting the team.




              We are DEAD LAST IN YARDS PER RUSH AND YARDS RUSHING PER GAME IN THE NFL! Worse then the Rams, worse then the Dolphins, worse then the Colts, worse then the Jags, worse then the Cards! LAST PLACE! That right there should get someone canned. This is not Giants football we are playing. Id say we are playing Charger football right now but instead of being in sunny San Diego where the weather wont effect the fantastic air display, we are in NY/NJ where it is widy, cold, icy, rainy. snowy, and at times flat out dumb to pass the ball.




              They need to figure out a way to get the run game going and stay with it in order to win in January. Last week we looked better, but Gilbride pulls the plug early of course and gets pass happy.




              Our leading rusher might not top 600 yards this year.




              [/quote]




              Injuries to O-line and Bradshaw have really hurt. Ran the ball very well last year. Need to upgrade the O-line in 2012. If the doctors feel Bradshaw can recover I would keep him, he is one tough guy. I think Jacobs is gone. We will need to add another RB.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Biggest issue

                DEFENSE

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Biggest issue

                  [quote user="TuckYou"][quote user="repeatchamps"]


                  I agree with you whole-heartedly. Giants football is exactly what you describe and in my heart of hearts what I prefer.




                  However, the pass happy style is not unsuccessful in this league in its current state. Look at Green Bay, look at New Orleans and look at New England and GB and NE play in hideous weather*as well and their run games are non-existant at times. Personally I'd like a Steelers style in all phases*here in NY but even they have become more of a pass first offense in recent years and they too play in poor weather conditions and often abandon the run.




                  [/quote]




                  Honestly, dont care what people say, Eli is not Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees (the 3 teams*QBs*you mentioned.) The offenses run in GB and NO are simply amazing, and they have amazing QBs to run it. We dont have the personel or coaching they have, although we are trying to run the same style offense right now. BUT, we are getting out of our element of Giants Football, which is Blue collar, build the trenches, smash mouth, ground and pound, agressive defense style of play. We are the exact opposite. Our defense is read and react, and our run game is shotgun draw. That will never work for this team. Remember a few years ago when we were winning the division and in the playoffs every year? We had 2 - 1000 yard rushers, and a ferocious defense. Thats why we were winning. Its nice to finally see Eli emerge as a top QB in the league, but it is hurting this teams chances. The offense goes for the huge plays, which keeps our defense on the field way to long most the game and they wear down.




                  We dont have the fire power to out score GB or NO in a shootout.

                  [/quote] I agree with what you say about us not having a good running game and you're also right that this type of offense will only get you so far and then opposing defenses will shut you down. This has become a passing league but you still have to be able to run the ball and to date we simply can't run it when we have to run it..One more thing is we are running out of RBs on the roster.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Biggest issue

                    I think Boothe and Petrus helped our run game last week. I am happy with this o-line going into the last 4 cold weeks of football. Our passing game speaks for itself, if we can run the ball like last week (or perhaps a tad bit better)...we got a playoff squad.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Biggest issue



                      [quote user="repeatchamps"]The common denominator in all those stats I posted aboveis year in-year outthe Giants just rarely score as much points as the Pats, Steelers and Colts and obviously win less because of that. Maybe it is not the distribution of run-pass but the inability to put up enough points to win more games. Considering the Giants averagearound the mid-20's ever year, it speaks volumes about the Giants defense. Either they are not getting enough opportunities or when the offense has had enoughopportunities they don't score often enough due to bad field position (which is partly the fault of special teams as well) or poor execution and play-callingin the red zone or anywhere on the field for that matter. It also could be that the defense gives up too many points (and consequently more opportunities for the opponent)for the offense to overcome. The other issue is turnovers which messes up everything as well.[/quote]




                      The thing is though, we can score less points, as long as our defense is productive and rested. With these 40+ yard bombs that Eli appears to throw on every drive now, if they connect it is great for the offense, but it is also putting the defense out on the field more and wearing them down quicker in games. By running the ball, we control the clock and keep the d on the sidelines. By runnin the ball, we have less of a chance of turning it over. Controlling the trenches is vital to success in the Meadowlands down he stretch. There is a reason we never had a superstar QB with crazy stats, or WRs that were tops in the league.




                      I guess with all the rule changes helping the QBs and WRs, it is the trend now, but we still need a solid running game to win a SB IMO, unlike the Packers or Pats or Saints.




                      BTW, our best season record wise and overall dominance wise was 2008 beofre Plax shot himself. Look at the stats you posted. That was the only year we ran more then passed.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Biggest issue

                        [quote user="bearbryant"]DEFENSE[/quote]

                        Exactly. If we can't stop anyone, it doesn't matter how much the running game improves.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Biggest issue

                          [quote user="TuckYou"]


                          [quote user="repeatchamps"]The common denominator in all those stats I posted aboveis year in-year outthe Giants just rarely score as much points as the Pats, Steelers and Colts and obviously win less because of that. Maybe it is not the distribution of run-pass but the inability to put up enough points to win more games. Considering the Giants averagearound the mid-20's ever year, it speaks volumes about the Giants defense. Either they are not getting enough opportunities or when the offense has had enoughopportunities they don't score often enough due to bad field position (which is partly the fault of special teams as well) or poor execution and play-callingin the red zone or anywhere on the field for that matter. It also could be that the defense gives up too many points (and consequently more opportunities for the opponent)for the offense to overcome. The other issue is turnovers which messes up everything as well.[/quote]




                          The thing is though, we can score less points, as long as our defense is productive and rested. With these 40+ yard bombs that Eli appears to throw on every drive now, if they connect it is great for the offense, but it is also putting the defense out on the field more and wearing them down quicker in games. By running the ball, we control the clock and keep the d on the sidelines. By runnin the ball, we have less of a chance of turning it over. Controlling the trenches is vital to success in the Meadowlands down he stretch. There is a reason we never had a superstar QB with crazy stats, or WRs that were tops in the league.




                          I guess with all the rule changes helping the QBs and WRs, it is the trend now, but we still need a solid running game to win a SB IMO, unlike the Packers or Pats or Saints.




                          BTW, our best season record wise and overall dominance wise was 2008 beofre Plax shot himself. Look at the stats you posted. That was the only year we ran more then passed.




                          [/quote]




                          I am in total agreement with you. My preference is the 2008 team every year with maybe even a better defense than that team was. I just find it interesting that cold weather teams like NE and GB can pass all day long, abandon the run, play mediocre at best defense and rack up tons of wins and advance in the playoffs every year. I really do prefer the Pittsburgh style overall as I think they are most consistent year in and year out. We need that here in NY, hence if Coughlin goes my choice is Cowher. I know only 1 Super Bowl title and just2 appearances and all that but still look at their records under Cowher, I'd take this consistency (other than '98,'99, '03and '06 of course, lol)in a heartbeat, people that don't want him are nuts. All these division titles would lead the Giants further in the playoffs and to Super Bowls more easily in the NFC than Cowher could in the AFC:




                          1992: 11-5 Division Champs either the #1 or #2 seedin his first season




                          1993: 9-7 Wild Card team




                          1994: 12-4 Division Champs #1 Seed




                          1995: 11-5 Division Champ #2 Seed AFC Champs




                          1996: 10-6 Division Champ #3 Seed




                          1997: 11-5 Division Champ #2 Seed




                          1998: 7-9




                          1999: 6-10




                          2000: 9-7




                          2001: 13-3 Division Champ #1 Seed




                          2002: 10-5-1 Division Champ #3 Seed




                          2003: 6-10




                          2004: 15-1 Division Champ #1 Seed




                          2005: 11-5 Division Champ #3 Seed Super Bowl Champ




                          2006: 8-8

                          Over 7000 posts, advanced member, joined March 2002. 1st post (as anonymous) was the day after Super Bowl 35

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Biggest issue

                            [quote user="repeatchamps"][quote user="TuckYou"]


                            [quote user="repeatchamps"]The common denominator in all those stats I posted aboveis year in-year outthe Giants just rarely score as much points as the Pats, Steelers and Colts and obviously win less because of that. Maybe it is not the distribution of run-pass but the inability to put up enough points to win more games. Considering the Giants averagearound the mid-20's ever year, it speaks volumes about the Giants defense. Either they are not getting enough opportunities or when the offense has had enoughopportunities they don't score often enough due to bad field position (which is partly the fault of special teams as well) or poor execution and play-callingin the red zone or anywhere on the field for that matter. It also could be that the defense gives up too many points (and consequently more opportunities for the opponent)for the offense to overcome. The other issue is turnovers which messes up everything as well.[/quote]




                            The thing is though, we can score less points, as long as our defense is productive and rested. With these 40+ yard bombs that Eli appears to throw on every drive now, if they connect it is great for the offense, but it is also putting the defense out on the field more and wearing them down quicker in games. By running the ball, we control the clock and keep the d on the sidelines. By runnin the ball, we have less of a chance of turning it over. Controlling the trenches is vital to success in the Meadowlands down he stretch. There is a reason we never had a superstar QB with crazy stats, or WRs that were tops in the league.




                            I guess with all the rule changes helping the QBs and WRs, it is the trend now, but we still need a solid running game to win a SB IMO, unlike the Packers or Pats or Saints.




                            BTW, our best season record wise and overall dominance wise was 2008 beofre Plax shot himself. Look at the stats you posted. That was the only year we ran more then passed.




                            [/quote]




                            I am in total agreement with you. My preference is the 2008 team every year with maybe even a better defense than that team was. I just find it interesting that cold weather teams like NE and GB can pass all day long, abandon the run, play mediocre at best defense and rack up tons of wins and advance in the playoffs every year. I really do prefer the Pittsburgh style overall as I think they are most consistent year in and year out. We need that here in NY, hence if Coughlin goes my choice is Cowher. I know only 1 Super Bowl title and just2 appearances and all that but still look at their records under Cowher, I'd take this consistency (other than '98,'99, '03and '06 of course, lol)in a heartbeat, people that don't want him are nuts. All these division titles would lead the Giants further in the playoffs and to Super Bowls more easily in the NFC than Cowher could in the AFC:




                            1992: 11-5 Division Champs either the #1 or #2 seedin his first season




                            1993: 9-7 Wild Card team




                            1994: 12-4 Division Champs #1 Seed




                            1995: 11-5 Division Champ #2 Seed AFC Champs




                            1996: 10-6 Division Champ #3 Seed




                            1997: 11-5 Division Champ #2 Seed




                            1998: 7-9




                            1999: 6-10




                            2000: 9-7




                            2001: 13-3 Division Champ #1 Seed




                            2002: 10-5-1 Division Champ #3 Seed




                            2003: 6-10




                            2004: 15-1 Division Champ #1 Seed




                            2005: 11-5 Division Champ #3 Seed Super Bowl Champ




                            2006: 8-8




                            [/quote]




                            Exactly. Im all for Cowher if Coughlin is out. I like Coughlin, but his coordinators he is in love with stink IMO.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Biggest issue

                              There will always be exceptions, but not in the Giants case. We have to run the ball because of the climate we play in late in the year. We will never be a good team latein the year trying to finesse the ball around as long as we play in East Rutherford. Deal with it.

                              Also , some of those stats listed above are misleading. The Packers , for example, were not a good rushing team in the regular season but were #1 in the post season.


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