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  • Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

    Iíve spent much of this spring and summer writing about quarterbacks. I have intentionally stayed away from rankings and lists. I strongly believe there are far too many variables to distill detailed and intricate evaluation to a generic list that does not inherently acknowledge or recognize those factors. In addition, as is always the case with lists, most focus on the order, rather than the substance of the reasoning.

    I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level. Certainly playoff wins and Super Bowl championships carry weight, but it always seemed disingenuous and dishonest to reduce judgment ó and ultimately, legacy ó to a mathematical equation based only on postseason wins and losses.

    This is all prelude to a discussion of Eli Manning, now the proud owner of two Super Bowl rings with the New York Giants. I would submit few quarterbacks in recent memory have developed gradually and steadily over time in the manner Manning has. One could easily make the argument that this kind of measured, methodical progression is the ideal for quarterback development.


    Note that winning Super Bowl XLII has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. That game was the signature example of the disconnect between result and process. Can anyone truly give Manning credit for David Tyreeís catch? A few plays earlier, the sure-handed Asante Samuel dropped an easy interception. But of course, the result made Manning a champion and a ďwinner.Ē

    Manning has always been a quarterback willing to turn it loose. He intuitively understood ďopenĒ is different in the NFL than in college. Against zone coverage, voids are more constricted and close more quickly; against man coverage, the area in which to place the ball is much smaller. Manning never struggled with that transition. The willingness to make stick throws into tight windows is a positive in the NFL, not a negative. Thereís no question heís thrown some poor interceptions in his career, but heís also pulled the trigger and completed balls on passes other quarterbacks would not have even attempted. Always keep in mind that interceptions must be closely scrutinized on an individual basis. Itís not a number that can be tossed out cavalierly, in an offhand manner, as if nothing more needs to be said. Unfortunately, itís presented that way. Again, an example of reducing a multi-faceted element of the game to a simple statistic that often signifies nothing.

    Manning, right from the start of his career, was given a full plate. His learning curve was accelerated. He was expected to recognize defensive fronts and adjust the running game accordingly at the line of scrimmage. Thatís very difficult for a young quarterback. Early in his career, his head is filled with information that must be systematically processed, and more importantly, isolated so that the right call is made against the defensive alignment. Manning has been outstanding controlling the Giants running game. Itís an aspect of his game that is often overlooked.

    In 2011, I saw significant improvement in two other elements of Manningís game: progression reading and pocket movement, with the corollary ability to extend plays outside the pocket. We all remember the 38-yard completion to Mario Manningham late in the fourth quarter of Super Bowl XLVI; it was the single biggest play in the game. It also reflected many of the attributes that I have often written about, beginning with pre-snap recognition of the coverage.

    It was Cover 2, with both New England Patriots safeties split, each responsible for one deep half of the field. The initial read for Manning was to the right, the two-receiver side. (Manningham was the single wide receiver to the left of the formation.) When Eli hit his plant step in the pocket, the routes to his progression side (the right) were not defined. He did not have a clear picture. There was no throw. Manning knew he had Manningham on the back-side fade. It was the safety to that side, not the corner, that he had to beat to make that throw....

    Read more:

    http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/07/03/c...-elis-arrived/
    My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

  • #2
    Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

    without reading a word of the post, THANK YOU.

    i already know this is gonna be a great, interesting read. be back with an opinion after i read through it.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

      i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

      but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

      eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

      i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

      and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

      eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

      thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

      i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

        Amazing article. Couldn't be happier with who we have leading this team.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

          I love Eli manning.

          The lack of respect given to the man is often brought up on here, but when he gets it, he gets it from guys that you want to trust.

          What I live the most is the amount of respect he gets from his teammates now. Loved hearing martellus Bennett come out and praise te guy after working with him for a week.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

            [quote user="giantsfan420"]i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

            but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

            eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

            i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

            and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

            eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

            thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

            i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell[/quote]

            You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

              The article is tersely written so he gets props for that. But most of what he's saying now has been covered many months ago.

              In addition he's off base about the Tyree catch. I think Bob Papa said it best when he said the play is great because "It has TWO parts"

              Lost in all the Eli hate some have forgoten that Eli was under seige before throwing the ball. And most have never acknowleged that the placement of the ball was out of this world.

              I'm not quite sure what the issue is but why don't people acknowlege that 1) Asante wasn't getting his feet in had he caught the ball. 2) Asante was in position to catch ball due to a busted route????

              Also Cosell seems to want to talk out of both sides of his mouth when he called Eli's progression steady while also implying that Eli made drastic improvements in 2011.

              Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically.

              Yeah...so..
              My 5 year old son right before the kickoff of the Super Bowl 46: Dad, are the Giants gonna win?

              Burier: Yes.

              My 5 year old son right before the kickoff of Super Bowl 46: Do you promise?

              Burier: Yes. I promise.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                [quote user="gumby742"][quote user="giantsfan420"]i enjoy cossels writing, and respect his opinion. I disagree with him on how he feels that no one can credit eli for the tyree sb 42 play. he wrote it in such a way that he implies that it was all the catch, and all tyree, when in reality eli escaped an overpowering pass rush with sheer guts and determination, and threw the ball and if tyree had caught it clean without using his helmet, which was possible, the play would exemplify how it was BOTH eli and tyree who made that play.

                but cossell is saying what so many here have said, that eli continues to get better and better each and every season and its methodical.

                eli has arrived and it is debatable among people that dont just base their thoughts on a number that eli may be the best qb in the nfl sooner than later if he isnt already.

                i really appreciated the fact ot his article about how it is a fallacy and incorrect to base elis play on a number, like ints or qb rating. that u have to approach it through so many different layers to come to an educated, rational opinion, because numbers dont illustrate so many aspects that are relevant and important to understand.

                and eli is excellent in several areas of qb play, especially in the most important areas imo; arm strength, confidence to use that arm strength and make an accurate stick throw, and amazingly clutch. he did also improve his in and out of pocket play, which really helped showcase just how special a talent he is.

                eli will continue to get better too, thats the scary thing. he will always study his game, and find areas to improve even if others would be content not to.

                thats also an interesting thought about how eli exemplifies the way for a qb to develop. to think there were so many who wanted to blow it up bc they werent patient enough to allow him to develop. it was almost like some people expected eli to be peyton right away, and since he wasnt, they gave him no respect...

                i could go on and on, but ill just say thanks for the link, always enjoy reading cosell[/quote]

                You forget, you also disagree with another major point of his which was how much he grew in 2011. You've always maintained the that difference between Eli in 2011 and 2010 was not as big as everyone made it out to be.[/quote]
                lol maybe in ur warped world it is. i have always maintained eli was a special, talented qb who displayed flashes of brilliance, and that he didnt just become this brand new, completely different player because he improved his in the pocket play. that of course this was his best year, and he improved from the season(s) before it. But I also maintained, as Cosell does, that he has that improvement after every year on an aspect(s) of his game...
                (edit- to further clarify, this past season, while it was clearly his best, is merely just a progression of who he was the season before. and that season was a progression from the year prior to that, etc. etc. Eli didnt just become this new guy, he is just continually developing. I found certain opinions that eli is this new qb who appeared out of nowhere and is playing completely different to be incorrect, and had no problem saying so.)

                did you enjoy the part about his explaining the importance of a stat(s) to evaluate a qb isnt an accurate way to do so? when i read that, i thought that you particularly could learn something from it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                  [quote user="burier"] Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically. [/quote]Where did Cosell say Eli "drastically improved"?

                  Cosell clearly said that Eli showed significant improvement in two areas of his game, Pocket Presence and Progression Reading. If you're talking about this post, where you "killed" the dead horse: [quote user="burier"]

                  1) I'm not oblivious to the widespread perception that Eli is inconsistent. I just feel it is inaccurate. In another thread someone stated that there is a believe that Eli is rattled by pressure which is not the case now and never was the case. Just because alot of people say it doesn't make it true especially when the opinion of many are molden by the few with loud microphones.

                  2) Like I indicated in the previous post I don't believe that passer rating (Or any stat) in a vacume is andvantageous tool for analytical purposes.

                  If we're going to use stats lets use large sample instead of cherry picking games or spots in certain seasons where Eli appeared to YOU to be playing irratically.

                  Eli's TD numbers from 2004-2008 in chronological order

                  6-24-24-23-21

                  As you know he played only 9 games his rookie year but for the next 4 years his numbers are pretty damn consistent, I stopped at 2008 because in 2009 his TD number jumps to 27...Which is a fairly considerable improvement....In 2010 he threw 31 tds.

                  Like it or not over time we're getting a player who is an amazingly consistent AND improving scorer of the football. (He'll likely match or better last years total this season)

                  2004-2008 Yards in Chronological order

                  1,043 - 3,762 - 3,244 -3,336 - 3,238

                  Again over in a 5 year span we're seeing very consistent yardage totals until 2009 when he again IMPROVED and broke the 4000 yards mark. (He broke the 4k mark in 2010 aswell and will very likely set a personal record for yardage this season.)

                  2004-2008 INTs in chronological order

                  9-17-18-20-*10

                  Keeping in mind that in his rookie year he only played 9 games even his INT numbers are very consistent year to year except for 2008 when the number IMPROVED drastically (See a theme here)

                  The mark of a poor argument is one that states others believe it so it must be true ala Hitler in Nazi Germany.

                  It doesn't matter how many talking heads want to call Eli inconsistent the numbers don't support it. the FACTS don't support it. He's been consistently improving as a player since he was drafted.

                  As far as the other thread you mention you'll have to remind me because I don't see anything wrong with our Defense other than Linebackers and I think our D coordinator has major issues he needs to work out with Jesus.

                  Edit: With the numbers I just presented I don't see how you can sit there with a straight face and say "Ill reserve judgement until next year...We've got 7 1/2 years of sample that reasonably predicts that next seasons numbers will better than this year's by and large[/quote]

                  ...You clearly would see that you have left the drastic improvements solely upon stats, leading many to believe that you see stats as the only basis of reasoning when it comes to QB improvement, OR consistency. Couple that with the fact that Cosell CLEARLY stated:

                  I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level.
                  You should be able to see that while you may have disproved a flawed perception that Eli is inconsistent, and has not drastically improved, that you did not successfully shut the door on any reasoning that Eli has significantly improved in the "attributes, traits, and characteristics", such as pocket presence, and progression reading, because you "killed" the dead horse with solely the use of statistics.
                  My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                    But let's keep in mind that Eli has been able to develop these areas, because he has always possessed these traits to some extent. It's hard to teach these core fundamentals if you don't have a feel for them. If you fold under pressure, it's hard to teach it, that's why people fear a guy like Weeden will bust because he folds in the face of a pass rush.

                    Eli has as much on his plate as any QB in the league, his steady improvement is great and statistically Burier has shown that Eli improves with consistency. Cosell also sees steady improvements, as will as significant improvements in some areas. I think everyone is basically arguing the same things.

                    Last year, people would argue if Eli was elite, now it's unanimous. Something had to change people minds over that time. Improved pocket play, and progression reading surely would have its effect on plenty of fan favorite measuring sticks, such as stats. So while we don't necessarily have the capabilities to gauge progression reading, and pocket play as well as Cosell, we can agree that Eli had a great year last year that proved a lot of doubters wrong, and if Cosell says that significant improvement was shown in those two areas of Eli's game, I think at the very least it is believable.
                    My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                      [quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="burier"] Not to beat the dead horse I personally killed but the "drastic improvement" in Eli's play in 2011 comes mostly from being extremely overcritcized in years passed (Especially 2010) and improved WR play and this position is backed statistically. [/quote]Where did Cosell say Eli "drastically improved"?

                      Cosell clearly said that Eli showed significant improvement in two areas of his game, Pocket Presence and Progression Reading. If you're talking about this post, where you "killed" the dead horse: [quote user="burier"]

                      1) I'm not oblivious to the widespread perception that Eli is inconsistent. I just feel it is inaccurate. In another thread someone stated that there is a believe that Eli is rattled by pressure which is not the case now and never was the case. Just because alot of people say it doesn't make it true especially when the opinion of many are molden by the few with loud microphones.

                      2) Like I indicated in the previous post I don't believe that passer rating (Or any stat) in a vacume is andvantageous tool for analytical purposes.

                      If we're going to use stats lets use large sample instead of cherry picking games or spots in certain seasons where Eli appeared to YOU to be playing irratically.

                      Eli's TD numbers from 2004-2008 in chronological order

                      6-24-24-23-21

                      As you know he played only 9 games his rookie year but for the next 4 years his numbers are pretty damn consistent, I stopped at 2008 because in 2009 his TD number jumps to 27...Which is a fairly considerable improvement....In 2010 he threw 31 tds.

                      Like it or not over time we're getting a player who is an amazingly consistent AND improving scorer of the football. (He'll likely match or better last years total this season)

                      2004-2008 Yards in Chronological order

                      1,043 - 3,762 - 3,244 -3,336 - 3,238

                      Again over in a 5 year span we're seeing very consistent yardage totals until 2009 when he again IMPROVED and broke the 4000 yards mark. (He broke the 4k mark in 2010 aswell and will very likely set a personal record for yardage this season.)

                      2004-2008 INTs in chronological order

                      9-17-18-20-*10

                      Keeping in mind that in his rookie year he only played 9 games even his INT numbers are very consistent year to year except for 2008 when the number IMPROVED drastically (See a theme here)

                      The mark of a poor argument is one that states others believe it so it must be true ala Hitler in Nazi Germany.

                      It doesn't matter how many talking heads want to call Eli inconsistent the numbers don't support it. the FACTS don't support it. He's been consistently improving as a player since he was drafted.

                      As far as the other thread you mention you'll have to remind me because I don't see anything wrong with our Defense other than Linebackers and I think our D coordinator has major issues he needs to work out with Jesus.

                      Edit: With the numbers I just presented I don't see how you can sit there with a straight face and say "Ill reserve judgement until next year...We've got 7 1/2 years of sample that reasonably predicts that next seasons numbers will better than this year's by and large[/quote]

                      ...You clearly would see that you have left the drastic improvements solely upon stats, leading many to believe that you see stats as the only basis of reasoning when it comes to QB improvement, OR consistency. Couple that with the fact that Cosell CLEARLY stated:

                      I have also isolated the play of the quarterback from circumstances and situations outside of his control, basing my comments solely on the attributes, traits and characteristics necessary to consistently play the position at a high level.
                      You should be able to see that while you may have disproved a flawed perception that Eli is inconsistent, and has not drastically improved, that you did not successfully shut the door on any reasoning that Eli has significantly improved in the "attributes, traits, and characteristics", such as pocket presence, and progression reading, because you "killed" the dead horse with solely the use of statistics.[/quote]

                      agreed.
                      My 5 year old son right before the kickoff of the Super Bowl 46: Dad, are the Giants gonna win?

                      Burier: Yes.

                      My 5 year old son right before the kickoff of Super Bowl 46: Do you promise?

                      Burier: Yes. I promise.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                        I love Eli Manning. He is the greatest QB in the history of NY Giants. He is a good guy and along with hia father and brother he helps a lot of people. He is also a gentleman that lets his play do the talking and that it very refreshing.

                        It is a good article but there are sone things I disagree with. The catch by Davis Tyree was just as much the escape and throw by Eli Manning. So many always overlook the fact that that was 3rd and 5. We had another down if that play didn't come through. The "sure" interception by Assante Samuel was not the case. There is no way he even makes a play on that ball inbounds. He knew it and you could see that he knew it.

                        The thing about this article that made me laugh is that Eli Manning has finally arrived. Ha. Eli Manning arrived during the 2007 season befininning with his public response to Tiki Barber, his ex teammates derogatory remarks about him. Michael Strahan stated that he was a little surprised because Eli Manning wasn't playing. Eli Manning then did not have a great statistical regular season that year but came rhrough when needed and then shined in playoffs and SuperBowl. His leadership on the opening drive of SuperBowl XLII that kept Tom Brady on the sidelines for the first 9:59 of the game is legendary and helped set the tone for the game.

                        Eli Manning consistently gotten better since then and I think we still haven't seen how great he really is. I appreciate the article and it is nice that folks are starting to notice but they are wrong. Eli Manning arrived years ago. Lets watch as he continues to be the dominating factor in defining thia era of NY Giants football.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                          Would have to agree with whats already been said

                          I beleive Eli has always been a great QB as far as pocket presence goes. I never agreed with jerry reese calling eli skittish early in his career. Eli always did a great job feeling pressure in the pocket and/or anticipating it

                          He always consistently got the ball out before pressure or reacted accordingly to it. I think the biggest difference in 2011 was that Eli & receivers did a better job ad-libbing against pressure and adjusting their routes. In the past, against pressure, Eli would throw jump balls to Plax with tremendous success. But as you saw in recent years, he hasnt had much success throwing balls up for grabs against pressure. Some would associate this with eli having poor pocket awareness/feel but I just think it was Eli trying to do too much

                          So in a sense I think Eli has always been a great QB, he just got better and more refined (if this wasnt repeated enough already in this thread)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                            [quote user="buffyblue"]I love Eli Manning. He is the greatest QB in the history of NY Giants. He is a good guy and along with hia father and brother he helps a lot of people. He is also a gentleman that lets his play do the talking and that it very refreshing.

                            It is a good article but there are sone things I disagree with. The catch by Davis Tyree was just as much the escape and throw by Eli Manning. So many always overlook the fact that that was 3rd and 5. We had another down if that play didn't come through. The "sure" interception by Assante Samuel was not the case. There is no way he even makes a play on that ball inbounds. He knew it and you could see that he knew it.

                            The thing about this article that made me laugh is that Eli Manning has finally arrived. Ha. Eli Manning arrived during the 2007 season befininning with his public response to Tiki Barber, his ex teammates derogatory remarks about him. Michael Strahan stated that he was a little surprised because Eli Manning wasn't playing. Eli Manning then did not have a great statistical regular season that year but came rhrough when needed and then shined in playoffs and SuperBowl. His leadership on the opening drive of SuperBowl XLII that kept Tom Brady on the sidelines for the first 9:59 of the game is legendary and helped set the tone for the game.

                            Eli Manning consistently gotten better since then and I think we still haven't seen how great he really is. I appreciate the article and it is nice that folks are starting to notice but they are wrong. Eli Manning arrived years ago. Lets watch as he continues to be the dominating factor in defining thia era of NY Giants football.[/quote]

                            good post. and especially good point about that longest drive to open the SB in SB history. that was HUGE, and it actually, looking back, could be the biggest reason we won that game and held their d to their lowest point total in the season. that drive was brilliant, and so important, words cant do it justice...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Cosell Talks: Eliís Arrived

                              How did he every discover this?

                              Cosell's a freakin' genius.

                              Comment

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