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  • Why Barden had a big game

    The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

    First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


    2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

    3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

    4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

    5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play.

    6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

    7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

    8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

    9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

    In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).

  • #2
    We have faced scrub defensive coordinators the last two games in Sheridan and McDermott (Remember, he was the temp DC in Philly at one point). This appears to be not only a huge fail in player execution from the Panthers defenders but I'd say Barden was given too much respect for...really doing nothing prior before this game. McDermott didn't do his homework imo.

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    • #3
      u have misinterpreted whatever it is u saw bc barden did make a few catches in man coverage. 100%. he did take advantage of a lot of zone looks, but he also beat the corner when it was man.
      further, that rookie wasnt matched up on barden every snap. 20 and 24 both matched up on Barden at times.

      i think u are confusing the defensive coverages based solely on what the LB's do. LB's can drop off into zones while the back end plays man, u know that right? the only reason I ask is bc PFF, NFL.com and ESPN.com all had discussed Barden killing Carolina in man situations across the middle, something Eli mentioned as well IIRC.

      besides, i dunno if ur trying t simply describe his catches, or try to devalue his performance. that was an NFL defense of a 1-1 team that had no real issues with any WR their first 2 weeks. Barden dominated them. Carolina feels that rookie is good enough to start, then thats on them. when austin and williams were buring tryon for TD's, i didnt see anyone going "Well, Austin doesnt deserve praise bc he caught a TD pass on a 4th stringer", it was simply tryon played poorly and the wr did his job. barden did his, and get ready to see him get it dne a lot more.

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      • #4
        virtually every assessment i've seen and read has discussed barden beating man coverage all night, so...? u have each catch vs zone coverage, which tells me ur misreading somethng. i can remember a few plays right off the top of my head he made receptions vs man coverage

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        • #5
          Slip, you know all players in the NFL aren't good and also KG has a lot of options in his playbook, that combo can beat a lot of teams in the NFL and watch Barden do well again.

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          • #6
            i really like lombardi's take on bardens play, and there was another article i read but i forget by who. barden was extremely impressive, and I'm glad so many are praising JR for having such a talented roster and breaking down plays on how barden succeeded. NFL live showed some great plays as well, 1 in particular where he abused man coverage across the middle. I think a lot of people in the nfl business of writing and player eval and basic just students of the game placed a lot more emphasis on the whole Div II thing outta Cal Poly. I didn't realize the odds were so stacked in front of Barden to begin with, I am super glad the Giants drafted him and were patient through the injuries bc he was never gonna light it up year 1. he needed to learn how to succeed at the nfl level. looks like the hard work paid off.

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            • #7
              oh and to answer ur title/question, barden had such a good night bc he has a ton of potential/talent to go along with a unique skill set and body build, at least imo. i think he had a big game too bc hes never gave up always worked hard battled through injuries and did it pretty much with so few in his corner and so many giant fans opposed to him.

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              • #8
                like lol do u not see the corner in clear man trail technique in that catch 5 image? barden def beat man coverage there. he also beat it a few times, 1 with that slant where he started outside and then worked inside, now that i recall, that corner played man techniques a lot more than i realized.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
                  The all-22 film is now up. So heres what I see. I know most of you think Im a barden hater, but that does not mean I cant break down the film.

                  First catch - defense is in Cover 3, the CB is about 8 yards off at the snap and already bailing deep. Barden gets a simple quick slant almost immediately after the snap (about 1 second) then takes it 8 yards before the CB and LB take him down.


                  2nd catch - defense appears to be in cover 1, the CBs are playing off by about 7-8 yards again, but this time they are not bailing, so its unlikely its C3. But either way, Ramses runs another quick slant, ball is there immediately, Ramses makes a great spin move back to the outside, the CB over pursues inside and Ramses takes it up the field for 21 yards.

                  3rd catch- Cover 1, for sure this time because both corners are up on the receivers at the line. The safety is in the middle of the field shaded towards Cruz, and actually moves towards Cruz after the snap (for the record, Cruz gets roughly 2 yards separation deep on Gamble, and the safety probably would not have been able to get there) But anyway, Barden is one on one with Josh Norman with no safety. Ramses gets Norman at the snap with a quick step, Norman takes the outside, Ramses runs a skinny post going inside and does get a little bit of separation, with no safety there to support, its an easy throw inside for Eli.

                  4th catch - Cover 4, outside CBs are both 10 yards off at the snap. The slot CB and underneath defenders are all in zone. Ramses out wide, Cruz in the slot next to him. Cruz runs a go route, and all the defenders including the slot CB that should have moved to cover Barden, carry him deep. Ramses runs a little 5 yard comeback route, when Cruz clears the coverage, Ramses is left all alone, he turns upfield and takes it 14 yards before he gets pushed out of bounds.

                  5th catch - Cover 3, CBs are about 2 yards off the receivers, but both bail deep. Ramses runs a really soft 15 yard in, the safety should be closing on that play quickly, but instead runs outside where nobody is. The CB just seems like he has no interest in following Ramses, perhaps the CB is still looking to get deep outside. But really this play is on the safety. Who takes himself completely out of the play.

                  6th catch - Cover 2 zone, lots of underneath defenders, Ramses runs a 20 yard in, honestly, the ball should have never been thrown. Two defenders could have intercepted the ball, but somehow it still got through, and Ramses does a great job tracking the tipped ball and making the catch.

                  7th catch- Cover 2 zone again, this time the CBs are up pressing. Ramses runs another in route, this one about 15 yards. Eli makes a great throw fitting it in between the zone defenders.

                  8th catch - Cover 1, both CBs are pressing, Ramses gets inside position off the jam, then uses his body to shield off the CB, and makes a good catch. 10 yards on this catch.

                  9th catch - This is the exact same play as his 4th catch, except they are on the opposite side of the offense. Cover 4, all defenders in zone, Cruz in the slot. Cruz goes deep, the under defender (slot CB) takes Cruz deep, Ramses is left alone. This time Ramses tries to turn it up inside and the LB makes a nice tackle.

                  In summary, Ramses made every catch either on Josh Norman, or he was left open. The Panthers underneath coverage, especially on quick throws, was awful, the LBs and safeties are the ones responsible for those catches and they were just nowhere near where they should have been. Similar to how much trouble the giants had with the cowboys on opening night against the slant. Ramses had to beat press coverage on 3 of his 9 catches (the pressing CB was always Norman).
                  Howard Cross, during the post game show, remarked about how far off the defenders were playing all game.
                  “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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                  • #10
                    I don't think anyone is claiming that Ramses Barden is the new Hakeem Nicks that can break down coverage and beat being doubled, but he should absolutely kick *** when he faces man coverage when defenses roll their coverage to Nicks and Cruz.

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                    • #11
                      "Barden is a lanky third-round draft pick who had fewer than 200 career receiving yards entering Thursday night. He had 138 yards in this game alone, continually beating man coverage over the middle."

                      http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...-down-panthers

                      just one article i had read about it. i know eli and tc remarked on how well barden was when going across the middle and making some tough catches an getting off the press cleanly. also, when teams play press, i assumed it usually meant man coverage. i know u can drop off into zone concepts with press, but the way that carolina corner was playing barden at the LOS and off the LOS, sure looked to me to be man coverage. maybe he had more catches vs zone, but i know he beat man coverage too
                      Last edited by giantsfan420; 09-22-2012, 11:44 AM.

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                      • #12
                        OK, got it Slip. The Panthers didn't have a great game plan dialed up. So let me ask you this, would any good receiver do the same in this game? If the answer is yes then just give him his due for doing what he was supposed to do as a good receiver. He took advantage of what they gave him and had a couple of very nice catches (the tipped ball and his 8th reception where he made a nice inside move and shielded the Corner with his body. The point is, if he goes in as the third WO he will likely be singled up in coverage. If he has finally figured out how to take advantage of his size he will be difficult to cover. I like the idea of having the opposing D pick their poison.

                        Oh, nice break down.....

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                        • #13
                          I think Slip made this to show that it was not not what Barden did, but what the other team were unable to do and what he said was true. Yet it still does not take away from what Barden did but was it more of him or the opposition? This can go for any player..

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                          • #14
                            I couldn't believe they were giving Barden that much cushion. He does not have blazing speed. Bad game plan by the defensive coordinator in my opinion. But the bottom line is Barden made the plays, which in my opinion should bump him up to #3 when Hixon and Nicks are healthy. It's tough for 5'10" DB's to cover 6'6" Barden.

                            Cruz, Nicks, Barden, Bennett....OL Beatty and Locklear as the tackles.....Andre Brown running with power? That's a pretty potent offense.
                            Last edited by moosedrool; 09-22-2012, 12:03 PM.

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                            • #15
                              Unbelievable, Barden has a good game and of course we have to have posters who have to dissect the reasoning behind it.

                              Giants fan since the early 80s

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