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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
    Both those points are pure fantasy. Phil loved Wellington Mara until the day he died. I'm sure he was angry after being released by George Young, but he loved Mr. Mara.
    Secondly, Parcells stuck the Giants by quitting after the draft of 1991 where the only option the Giants had was to hire from inside, which was Ray Handley. It was Parcells who quit....and stuck the team in the process. Like they were going to fire a HC who just won his 2nd SB.
    Oh Yeah....and Ray Handley was already gone when Phil played his last season. His last year was played for Dan Reeves. The Ray Handley mess was well before that.
    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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    • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      Oh Yeah....and Ray Handley was already gone when Phil played his last season. His last year was played for Dan Reeves. The Ray Handley mess was well before that.
      Yep, I was an observer at the last Giants training camp that Simms attended at Fairleigh ****inson. Kent Graham and Dave Brown were the quarterbacks and it was pretty much pre-determined by Reeves that Brown was to be the man. Brown received a majority of the snaps. That was actually LT's return from his achilles injury as well, of which he tore against the Packers the year before.

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      • This thread needs a butt plug...

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        • Originally Posted by BuffyBlueII
          If you take Eli Manning and put him in the system that Phil Simms was in, Eli would have dominated that era. The system Phil Simms was in was painless and seamless. Eli would have thrived with that O line and run game. Heck, if Eli Manning were the QB back then, Mark Bavarro may have put up Gronkowski numbers. Our O line and run game was so great that when Hoss, a guy that ran a 4.28 40 took over, he rarely had to run.
          I disagree for two reasons. While we had a strong group in the Surburbanites and a great RB in Joe Morris, we were weak at WR. If you watched the Giants back then you know how Phil sat back there waiting and waiting for guys to get open without any regard for the pounding he was about to take. Eli is not that type of QB. I see Eli struggling with the pressure and quite possibly going into the 'chuck and duck' mode instead giving the WR the extra time needed.

          The other thing is that Parcells always looked to run out the clock the moment we got a lead, so Phil had to adapt to that and become a game manager. That meant: run, run, pass. Every player ay any position feels better when they can get into a rhythm. Parcells' strategy did not allow that for Phil, so many times he ended up throwing on average about 20 times a game - all when everyone and his mother knew he had to throw. No way do I see Eli being successful in that environment.


          I think Phil Simms would have had issues with this system under Gillbride. I am not saying that he would not have gotten it but it would have taken him longer than Eli. Heck, it took Phil awhile to get the system he was in down and that one was simple as it gets.
          First off Eli is still struggling with Gilbride's system so I'm not sure you should even speculate about this.

          But anyway, things are so different now. For instance, there was no such thing as a QB coach for most of Phil's career. They just didn't study film and pay attention to every detail the way they do now.

          The other thing when talking about the Giants system is you are failing to acknowledge Parcells' "interference" with Ron Erhardt's game plan. Ron and Phil rarely got to run their offense because of Bill Parcells insistence on running the ball the moment they got a lead, whereas Tom for the most part allows Kevin and Eli to throw whenever they want.


          I'm not spewing angst at Phil but in my opinion, Eli is a better QB.
          And you know what they say about opinions - they are just like a-holes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
          Last edited by Roosevelt; 11-14-2012, 11:49 PM.
          Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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          • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
            Eli is not that type of QB. I see Eli struggling with the pressure and quite possibly going into the 'chuck and duck' mode instead giving the WR the extra time needed.
            Not true. In the touchdown to Cruz against the Redskins, Eli got drilled the second he released the ball. He knew he was going to get killed, stayed in the pocket, and threw it downfield to hit Cruz in stride for the game winner.

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            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              Both those points are pure fantasy. Phil loved Wellington Mara until the day he died. I'm sure he was angry after being released by George Young, but he loved Mr. Mara.
              Secondly, Parcells stuck the Giants by quitting after the draft of 1991 where the only option the Giants had was to hire from inside, which was Ray Handley. It was Parcells who quit....and stuck the team in the process. Like they were going to fire a HC who just won his 2nd SB.
              I have to agree with you on this one. Phil Simms always spoke fondly of Mr. Mara. I do think that Phil can be a schmuck sometimes but he will always be a NY Giant legend. Phil was a very special talent with a laser canon arm that under a different HC would have probably thrown for 50,000+ yards. He was a tough SOB that was a real character too. Like Joe Namath, what he brought to the game went far beyond stats.

              Tuna screwed us and he purposely did it. As smart as the guy is, he was always a spoiled brat with an enormous ego. I still think that it was Bill Bellichek that was the real genius on those NY Giants teams and judging by his success since then, it looks like I am right.

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              • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                Not true. In the touchdown to Cruz against the Redskins, Eli got drilled the second he released the ball. He knew he was going to get killed, stayed in the pocket, and threw it downfield to hit Cruz in stride for the game winner.
                You can't use just one example. And right now Eli is not that same QB. Eli started throwing off his back foot with feigned pressure on him early this year.
                Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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                • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                  You can't use just one example. And right now Eli is not that same QB. Eli started throwing off his back foot with feigned pressure on him early this year.
                  There isn't just one example of this. There are many more. We've all seen them. You made it sound like Eli is always scared to take a hit instead of biting the bullet and making a play, and Phil was so great because he wasn't.

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                  • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                    I disagree for two reasons. While we had a strong group in the Surburbanites and a great RB in Joe Morris, we were weak at WR. If you watched the Giants back then you know how Phil sat back there waiting and waiting for guys to get open without any regard for the pounding he was about to take. Eli is not that type of QB. I see Eli struggling with the pressure and quite possibly going into the 'chuck and duck' mode instead giving the WR the extra time needed.

                    The other thing is that Parcells always looked to run out the clock the moment we got a lead, so Phil had to adapt to that and become a game manager. That meant: run, run, pass. Every player ay any position feels better when they can get into a rhythm. Parcells' strategy did not allow that for Phil, so many times he ended up throwing on average about 20 times a game - all when everyone and his mother knew he had to throw. No way do I see Eli being successful in that environment.



                    First off Eli is still struggling with Gilbride's system so I'm not sure you should even speculate about this.

                    But anyway, things are so different now. For instance, there was no such thing as a QB coach for most of Phil's career. They just didn't study film and pay attention to every detail the way they do now.

                    The other thing when talking about the Giants system is you are failing to acknowledge Parcells' "interference" with Ron Erhardt's game plan. Ron and Phil rarely got to run their offense because of Bill Parcells insistence on running the ball the moment they got a lead, whereas Tom for the most part allows Kevin and Eli to throw whenever they want.




                    And you know what they say about opinions - they are just like a-holes. Everyone has one and they all stink.
                    The system Eli Manning is playing in is not QB friendly at all. I really think that another OC would make a world of difference. Now, I am not saying that KGs system is bad but it one that you don’t need when you have a QB as talented as Eli. Perhaps with a decent O line, it is a better system but unfotunately Eli has never had a very good O line. Eli Manning has made the most out of a very flawed system. I don’t think Phil would have taken to it.

                    Eli ducking and chucking? I have no idea how you are seeing this. Eli may try to force passes and throw picks more than he should but the man hangs in the pocket. Phil Simms also handeled pocket pressure well but he just wasn’t as durable as Eli.

                    Our play calling when we have the lead is shaky at best. We often get too conservative and it has cost us dearly. The miracle at meadowlands 2 was a prime example of going from what worked to being too conservative. However, if we had a good O line and a good RB like Tuna had then we may be more successful running when we have the lead.

                    Eli Manning would have thrived if he had played for Bill Parcells on that team. Eli Manning is an old school tough SOB and Parcells would have loved him. He would have treated a lot like he did Drew Bledsoe when he drafted him.

                    My opinion is right and yours is wrong, regardless of what it smells like.

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                    • Originally posted by BuffyBlueII View Post
                      The system Eli Manning is playing in is not QB friendly at all. I really think that another OC would make a world of difference. Now, I am not saying that KGs system is bad but it one that you don’t need when you have a QB as talented as Eli. Perhaps with a decent O line, it is a better system but unfotunately Eli has never had a very good O line. Eli Manning has made the most out of a very flawed system. I don’t think Phil would have taken to it.

                      Eli ducking and chucking? I have no idea how you are seeing this. Eli may try to force passes and throw picks more than he should but the man hangs in the pocket. Phil Simms also handeled pocket pressure well but he just wasn’t as durable as Eli.

                      Our play calling when we have the lead is shaky at best. We often get too conservative and it has cost us dearly. The miracle at meadowlands 2 was a prime example of going from what worked to being too conservative. However, if we had a good O line and a good RB like Tuna had then we may be more successful running when we have the lead.

                      Eli Manning would have thrived if he had played for Bill Parcells on that team. Eli Manning is an old school tough SOB and Parcells would have loved him. He would have treated a lot like he did Drew Bledsoe when he drafted him.

                      My opinion is right and yours is wrong, regardless of what it smells like.

                      Yours is opinion.. Mine is fact.
                      Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                        There isn't just one example of this. There are many more. We've all seen them. You made it sound like Eli is always scared to take a hit instead of biting the bullet and making a play, and Phil was so great because he wasn't.
                        Eli has a decent feel for pressure and is very good at maneuvering just enough to get off a pass, but no, I wouldn't say Eli is anywhere near Phil in being fearless in the face of pressure. Eli protects his body and Phil didn't.
                        Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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                        • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                          Yours is opinion.. Mine is fact.
                          Lol....hehehehehehe.......me right you wrong.......

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                          • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                            Eli has a decent feel for pressure and is very good at maneuvering just enough to get off a pass, but no, I wouldn't say Eli is anywhere near Phil in being fearless in the face of pressure. Eli protects his body and Phil didn't.
                            Obviously you didn’t watch the NFC Championship Game against San Francisco 49ers. Also, Phil Simms had a better offensive line than Eli Manning does.

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                            • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                              Eli has a decent feel for pressure and is very good at maneuvering just enough to get off a pass, but no, I wouldn't say Eli is anywhere near Phil in being fearless in the face of pressure. Eli protects his body and Phil didn't.
                              If this is about who's the tougher QB its not tipped in Phil's favor as much as you'd like to admit. Eli maneuvers around in the pocket and does have a feel for pressure, I don't care, the dudes 3rd all-time in the league for consecutive starts. You can't do that and not be tough in this league. The notion that Phil was so much more resilient than Manning is false. The dude takes plenty of hits. Many other QB's would have crumbled in the NFCCG. Which means no SB.

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                              • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                                If this is about who's the tougher QB its not tipped in Phil's favor as much as you'd like to admit. Eli maneuvers around in the pocket and does have a feel for pressure, I don't care, the dudes 3rd all-time in the league for consecutive starts. You can't do that and not be tough in this league. The notion that Phil was so much more resilient than Manning is false. The dude takes plenty of hits. Many other QB's would have crumbled in the NFCCG. Which means no SB.
                                Rusty, I completely agree with you on this. I have no idea how folks just expect it to be a statement of fact that Phil Simms was tougher than Eli Manning is. I watched Phil play and i have obviously watched Eli play and there is no doubt that Eli Manning has taken the harder hits. Phil was tough but not as tough as Eli Manning.

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