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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by nygfanmaybe View Post
    There are a few here that have been waiting a long time for this...and to be honest, I knew the day was coming. Eli is elite if he is protected, has receivers that can create separation, and has some sort of running game to keep the defense honest. In this scenario, he would be MVP every year, however we may never know. I compare him favorably to QB's like Brady and even his brother. If you take away one or two of those aspects and they become very average...especially the protection and we only have to look at our SB's to see what you can do to Brady if you don't give him time.

    There are QB's out there that can succeed without great protection...for a while...but it seems these guys end up on the sideline for a stretch just about every year. How many times have you seen teams with QB's like these that head into the playoffs with their top QB out with injury.

    I think the real problem here on this board is that there are people here who lived through the Simms era and became very attached to him. They don't want anyone else to come and take his crown, and that is understandable. I would venture to say that it happens all the time with other fans of other teams. I can only imagine if anyone ever went to SF and challenged Montana's legend. It would be ugly would be putting it mildly.

    Like it was said before, elite is a subjective word. There is no set standard such as certain stats over a certain time to define it. Like I said before, I consider Eli elite because of the fact that he is chosen to endorse so many things, especially the ads that try to control the evils of the world. Not only has Eli accomplished a lot on the field, but he has gone about it in a way that is very honorable in a place that is not very conducive to such behavior. IMO, that makes him elite...but again, it will always just be an opinion when talking about a word like "elite".
    Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
    IF Eli has great protection, IF Eli has a good running game, IF Eli has WR's that create separation, he is Elite. Well so would many, many other QB's. I have always said that Eli needs really good players around him, to fulfill the scenario we just described.
    Is that "elite"? A guy who has to have these specific conditions around him to succeed? My view is no. Others clearly disagree.

    Now lets look at Phil. Despite the claims to the contrary, Phil spent most of his career getting killed due to a horrific O line. To me, only Davis Carr has been hit more often than Phil in NFL history. Phil had below average pass catchers. The list of mediocrity at the WR position is troubling. He did have Bavaro who was great, but when Phil threw for 4000 yards, he didn't have Bavaro. He didn't have a single guy catch 50 balls.

    Ultimately the conditions on the ground matter. Eli has had two generations of outstanding pass catchers. He has had much better O line protection. In other words, Phil did it with far, far less. In my view, he was simply better. Not just because of these factors, but because of his raw ability and skill level to play the game. Phil was just a better passer, had a better release, was a better field general. And Eli's "bad" is really, really bad. Phil was never as bad as we've seen the past 4 weeks.
    This topic will be argued by Giants fans forever. It will never be resolved. But hopefully when the agenda's are put away, a more calm and intelligent debate can be had.
    Last edited by Morehead State; 11-19-2012, 10:18 AM.
    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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    • Originally posted by YATittle1962 View Post
      if we are going by the literal definition of the wordI dont think there are 10 QBs better than Eli in the leagueand in general consensus the top ten of anything would be considered cream of the crop so to speak therefor he would be among the group of elite players at his position
      35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition

      Comment


      • Originally posted by stormblue View Post
        sorry , never met a dude named Buffy.
        I'm going for a 100
        Players come and go on the Free Agency Merry-Go-Round, but the N.Y. Giants will always be here!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by bigjeep View Post
          I'm going for a 100
          i don't geddit...

          what does that even mean ?
          due to the fact that I am from the Woodstock generation ...
          my opinions may be chemically enhanced and influenced by severe episodes of memory loss

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
            Well...if you sincerely consider my post interesting than I have succeeded. That is all I aspire to...for my posts to create interest.

            I knew the response of "well, anyone could succeed under those conditions"...or words similar...was coming. It is true to a certain degree...but I do think that you have to put your time in on the practice field and film room, have a reasonable amount of intelligence, a pro QB arm, and be able to brush-off the criticism that comes during times like these. Some guys may have some of those qualities but not all.

            I don't know if you caught that piece on Tebow where there were 4 QB's, (Staubach, Stewart, Young, and Namath) talking about different aspects of Tebow's game and personality. I bring this up because of the piece that Steve Young did. He talked about the platform that the 9ers provided for him and how thankful and fortunate he was to have that platform. My contention is that even great QB's will fail without such a platform.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by nygfanmaybe View Post
              Well...if you sincerely consider my post interesting than I have succeeded. That is all I aspire to...for my posts to create interest.

              I knew the response of "well, anyone could succeed under those conditions"...or words similar...was coming. It is true to a certain degree...but I do think that you have to put your time in on the practice field and film room, have a reasonable amount of intelligence, a pro QB arm, and be able to brush-off the criticism that comes during times like these. Some guys may have some of those qualities but not all.

              I don't know if you caught that piece on Tebow where there were 4 QB's, (Staubach, Stewart, Young, and Namath) talking about different aspects of Tebow's game and personality. I bring this up because of the piece that Steve Young did. He talked about the platform that the 9ers provided for him and how thankful and fortunate he was to have that platform. My contention is that even great QB's will fail without such a platform.
              There are so many nuances to this comparison. Ultimately after all the stats (which are very hard to compare era to era) and SB MVP's (which mean next to nothing), we all just go by what we see, and the context that we see it in.
              My context was a guy who was the leader of a team that broke the cycle of losing that my team suffered for my entire childhood. A guy who overcame more obstacles than anyone who wasn't there can't imagine. He wasn't the son of an NFL QB, he didn't have the care that this Giants regime has handled Eli with. He didn't have the weapons that Eli had.
              All we ultimately have is what we've seen on the field and the impact it had on us. Ironically, my greatest moment as a Giants fan was Joe Danelo's FG in OT agianst the Cowboys, followed by Plaxico's TD in SB 42. But in the great scheme of Giants history, to me Phil epitomized everything I think an NFL QB should be. As is true with all of us, I am looking through the prism of my expectations and experiences. But I've tried to make a logical argument.

              Having said that, football fandom ain't logical.
              Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                There are so many nuances to this comparison. Ultimately after all the stats (which are very hard to compare era to era) and SB MVP's (which mean next to nothing), we all just go by what we see, and the context that we see it in.
                My context was a guy who was the leader of a team that broke the cycle of losing that my team suffered for my entire childhood. A guy who overcame more obstacles than anyone who wasn't there can't imagine. He wasn't the son of an NFL QB, he didn't have the care that this Giants regime has handled Eli with. He didn't have the weapons that Eli had.
                All we ultimately have is what we've seen on the field and the impact it had on us. Ironically, my greatest moment as a Giants fan was Joe Danelo's FG in OT agianst the Cowboys, followed by Plaxico's TD in SB 42. But in the great scheme of Giants history, to me Phil epitomized everything I think an NFL QB should be. As is true with all of us, I am looking through the prism of my expectations and experiences. But I've tried to make a logical argument.

                Having said that, football fandom ain't logical.
                You know...I don't think I have ever said anything negative about Phil. I do put him on a list of great NYG QB's. That list would include Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, and Eli. I am sure I am leaving someone out...but that's not the point. I don't have a need to label who is the best. They were all entertaining, and I think today's version of Eli and the Giants is right up there when you speak of entertainment. I don't have to work-out during football season because one Giant game is good for a week of cardiovascular exercise.

                I can't speak for the previous years, because in yesterday's media when a kid from the MS Gulf Coast only got to see people like Tittle when it was put on one of the 3 channels we had, you didn't get much exposure. Connerly was playing when I was a kid, but I think I was in a crib or something.

                Rambling again...but I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think that I had a problem with Phil. My honest opinion of him before it became mandatory that I think about it was that he was a good QB that lead a good team with a great defense. In that era, unfortunately for Simms fans, LT was the focus of that team and received a lion's share of the publicity that reached markets outside of NY. I have to admit, though...as an outsider I don't put him on a pedestal and have Eli on a pedestal because of where I grew up and how much of an impact the whole "Archie Manning" story has had on my life.

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                • Originally posted by BuffyBlueII View Post
                  I am not saying that the defense didn’t show up but they did get help from our offense. The opening drive resulting in only 3 points isn’t really the point now is it? The very fact that the opening drive took 9:59 was what was important. We were able to keep NE Patriots from scoring till the 2nd quarter.

                  What happens is when we are all discussing we go off on tangents or put down another part of the team more than we really want to because we are defending our positions.

                  Do I think Eli is better than Phil was? Yes I do but I still love Phil and think he is an all time NY Giant great.

                  Do I think our defense has been soft at times during the past 5-6 seasons? Yes I do but I do acknowledge that they have showed up at crucial times, particularly in postseason. I also acknowledge at times that I may be over critical of them when defending my position in one debate or another.

                  Phil has the right to make any comments that he wants and I do think that they are being blown way out of proportion. I think Eli Manning is an ELIte QB but some folks do not and they do have a legitimate argument. If they are going to say that Aaron, Drew, Ben, Peyton and Tom are better then that would make Eli number 6 and technically, he wouldn’t be considered ELIte. Personally, I think that the only QB that is better than Eli is Tom.

                  The thing with Eli Manning is that when he is on his game, he is one of the most feared players in NFL. Phil as awesome as he was, never was like that. Its not a knock on Phil, just my opinion.

                  Another thing in the comparrasion with Eli and Phil is that NY Giants would win when Phil was off. Come on now folks, those of you like myself that watched Phil back then know that he put up some stinkers. He had some awful games too. When Eli is off, it is very rare that NY Giants win.

                  All the fuss about the “is Eli ELIte or not question” but folks sometimes forget to realize that Eli was asked the question. He didn’t just go out there and state “hey, I am in same class as Tom Brady.” He was asked the question and he answered it in the only way that he should have. Then he went out, had a great regular season and then an incredible post season where he threw for more yards in a single post season than any other QB in NFL history.The reporter asked him the question. Eli gave his verbal answer and then he went out and let his play do the talking.
                  I agree with a lot of this post. You're right, sometimes we argue our positions and come across as if we are taking shots at players or coaches or whatever, when that is really not the intention of the point were trying to make. That is why some people (mostly the loonies) labeled me a hater.

                  But you must admit you did make comments stating that if Eli played in Simms' system and era, he would have dominated it, and Phil would have struggled with this team. You followed that up by saying Parcells would have done back-flips to have Eli, and tried to diminish Phil's SB performance by suggesting it was due to soft defense. You also tried to discredit him for our success in 1990 as well. So while you seem to be in gentlemen-mode now you certainly weren't earlier in the thread.

                  One thing I want to touch on is when we analyze the differences in the game, we need to consider not only how things have changed on the field, but off it as well. I've said this many times, and will say it again; the Giants did have a QB coach back in 1981. That is why Phil was very interested in playing for Bill Walsh. When Phil was worked out by Walsh, he released that this man was something special and extremely knowledgeable about the QB position. The Giants on the other hand, didn't hire a QB coach until 1991 and that guy was Jim Fassel. Fassel played a major role in Phil's development as a QB. Film study before Jim was nothing like it is today. Just the technological aspect alone that allows these players to study the game is light-years ahead in comparison to what it was. So when we talk about Eli being better at reading defenses and things of that nature, let's agree that he damned well better be.

                  The other thing I would debate you on is whether Eli could "be off" and we still win. Up until the end of 2007 I would say that was exactly what was happening. Plaxico Burress made it so that all Eli had to do was chuck up in his direction and somehow Plax would come down with it time after time. Without Plaxico we weren't winning that SB, period.

                  And In more recent years as Eli has progressed and continues to wow us in the 2-minute drill, he does struggle at times, and get's bailed out by his teammates. It works both ways.

                  There were a lot of lean years before Phil Simms became a Giant, and I have never discounted him. I've always thought the lack of talent surrounding him as well as Parcells influence on the offensive system, made it very difficult for a QB to perform at a high level.

                  And with that. I gotta get back to work!

                  Comment


                  • Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CowboysSuck View Post
                      Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.
                      Just when the conversation gets intelligent and non-agendized, you go and try to drag it back down into the sewer.
                      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CowboysSuck View Post
                        Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.
                        Never. LOL
                        sigpic

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                        • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                          Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
                          IF Eli has great protection, IF Eli has a good running game, IF Eli has WR's that create separation, he is Elite. Well so would many, many other QB's. I have always said that Eli needs really good players around him, to fulfill the scenario we just described.
                          Is that "elite"? A guy who has to have these specific conditions around him to succeed? My view is no. Others clearly disagree.

                          Now lets look at Phil. Despite the claims to the contrary, Phil spent most of his career getting killed due to a horrific O line. To me, only Davis Carr has been hit more often than Phil in NFL history. Phil had below average pass catchers. The list of mediocrity at the WR position is troubling. He did have Bavaro who was great, but when Phil threw for 4000 yards, he didn't have Bavaro. He didn't have a single guy catch 50 balls.

                          Ultimately the conditions on the ground matter. Eli has had two generations of outstanding pass catchers. He has had much better O line protection. In other words, Phil did it with far, far less. In my view, he was simply better. Not just because of these factors, but because of his raw ability and skill level to play the game. Phil was just a better passer, had a better release, was a better field general. And Eli's "bad" is really, really bad. Phil was never as bad as we've seen the past 4 weeks.
                          This topic will be argued by Giants fans forever. It will never be resolved. But hopefully when the agenda's are put away, a more calm and intelligent debate can be had.
                          These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

                          Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play now than when we won SuperbowlXLII. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

                          Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

                          Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB. However, the argument that Philm Simms was the better QB is a legitimate one. The guy was tough as nails and so very talented. In another system, I think he would have had way better stats. Heck, there was a reason that a fottball smarty pants like the late BIll Walsh wanted to draft him so bad.
                          Last edited by BuffyBlueII; 11-19-2012, 02:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BuffyBlueII View Post
                            These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

                            Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

                            Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

                            Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB.
                            If you use just 2011 to judge Eli, then you have a good case. All these things are true about our team last season. And if we saw a continuation of last years play, then you would have a case there too. But......
                            -One season out of 9 isn't the standard.
                            - if the play continued this season, you could make the argument that he has become a great QB. But he is playing like a rookie this year. 12 TD's and 11 picks are worse numbers than most NFL QB's this season. Its not a small drop off...its a huge one. And his poor plays are really bad. I mean real "shake your head" kind of bad.

                            I am very disappointed that he has played the way he has. I was actually starting to believe that he had become a much better QB. And BTW..as bad as his numbers are, they should be worse. He threw two passes in the hands of defenders at our near the attacking endzone in SF and in Dallas that should have been picked and run back for defensive TD's.

                            So we have to step back and take a look at the good and bad of Eli. His career so far in its entirety. What we see is a guy with flashes of greatness. A guy who put together two great playoff runs. A guy with a knack for late game greatness at times. But we also see a guy who is extremely inconsistent, who is capable still of horrendous play that only rookie QB's should have, and a guy who has a generally "uneven" level of play for 9 years.
                            So I see a franchise QB, who has done some great things with us, but also has weaknesses and unbroken bad habits that keep him off the list of "elite" QB's.
                            Last edited by Morehead State; 11-19-2012, 02:39 PM.
                            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Imgrate View Post
                              35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition
                              the literal definition is

                              a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
                              b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

                              I believe Eli is among the best in the league

                              there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by YATittle1962 View Post
                                the literal definition is

                                a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
                                b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

                                I believe Eli is among the best in the league

                                there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company
                                Well there are literal definitions and there are football definitions.
                                I think "elite" QB's need to be more consistently great that Eli.
                                Right now I think there are 5.
                                Rodgers, Brees, Peyton, Brady and Ben. I thought Eli and Ben were at a similar level, but I'm growing more convinced of Ben's greatness. And I'm getting a little uncertain of Eli's.
                                "Elite" QB's don't go through a 5 game stretch with 1 TD and 6 picks. And its been uglier than those numbers suggest.
                                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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