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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
    Agree to disagee. Phil was a just a better football player.
    Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?

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    • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      How dare he!
      The last thing we need in the world is a little honesty.

      No sir....we must march in lock step (or should I say "goosestep") with the masses of the obedient . We must reduce those who challenge his greatness to the rubble of history, and send them eastward in railcars, never to be heard from again.


      Or we could........ FIGHT THE POWER!!!!!!!
      Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by VBGiantsFan View Post
        Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.
        Who did it feel like a slight to? You? A couple other fans?
        It was far from a slight. The ultimate truth is that Eli is tremendously inconsistent. You just don't know which Eli will show up from game to game.
        Thats not elite. Thats a guy who can show flashes of greatness one week and then look like a rookie who's never played an NFL game the next. I thought he had lost some of that inconsistency after last year. But in the 4 game stretch starting with Wash. we saw play that reminded us all of his rookie season.
        Now he's a fine player, and he will accumulate some great stats in passing yards and TD's, solely because of longevity, because his year to year numbers aren't that great.

        Now that's my opinion. It seems to be Phil's opinion as well. I'm sure its the opinion of many observers of the NFL. You can agree or disagree with that. That's the way the world goes round. But its NOT an insult to Eli to have this view. And to go after Phil as if he has some axe to grind because he has the view he has is not supported by any fact. Its just a kneejerk reaction by those who question anyone's motives who DARE to question Eli's greatness.

        If I offended you I apologize. It was a poor attempt at humor. But this "attack anyone who questions Eli" attitude by some here has to be challenged.
        Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dline83 View Post
          Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?
          Good points. Saying Simms is better used to be an opinion. Now it is just a flat out incorrect statement.

          Saying Danny Kennell was a better QB than Simms is also an opinion.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Who did it feel like a slight to? You? A couple other fans?
            It was far from a slight. The ultimate truth is that Eli is tremendously inconsistent. You just don't know which Eli will show up from game to game.
            Thats not elite. Thats a guy who can show flashes of greatness one week and then look like a rookie who's never played an NFL game the next. I thought he had lost some of that inconsistency after last year. But in the 4 game stretch starting with Wash. we saw play that reminded us all of his rookie season.
            Now he's a fine player, and he will accumulate some great stats in passing yards and TD's, solely because of longevity, because his year to year numbers aren't that great.

            Now that's my opinion. It seems to be Phil's opinion as well. I'm sure its the opinion of many observers of the NFL. You can agree or disagree with that. That's the way the world goes round. But its NOT an insult to Eli to have this view. And to go after Phil as if he has some axe to grind because he has the view he has is not supported by any fact. Its just a kneejerk reaction by those who question anyone's motives who DARE to question Eli's greatness.

            If I offended you I apologize. It was a poor attempt at humor. But this "attack anyone who questions Eli" attitude by some here has to be challenged.
            I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by VBGiantsFan View Post
              Not sure how to respond to your sardonic post or your reference to railcars (Holocaust) which I find offensive, other than to say that as fans, our expectations from previously great players is to show some loyalty to their team. He was honest, sure, and his honestly felt like a slight. Amani Toomer was honest when he said he through Romo was a better QB than Eli, and it felt like a slight. I'm not saying we should muzzle Simms, simply that his comment was a slight to Eli, and based on Eli's accomplishments, unjust.
              Phil said he believed Eli was HOF'er, but not amongst the elite because he cannot win games on his own.

              Maybe somebody who took offense to Phil's comments can explain how calling Eli a HOF'er is slighting him.

              This idea that Phil needs to call Eli one of the greatest QB's of all-time or he's taking a shot at him and the Giants is just ridiculous.

              Eli has his moments, but he's definitely not amongst the greatest QB's that I've seen play.
              Last edited by Roosevelt; 11-26-2012, 01:12 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by VBGiantsFan View Post
                I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.
                Opinions vary, especially when a player's game is up and down.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                  Phil said he believed Eli was HOF'er, but just amongst the elite because he cannot win games on his own.

                  Maybe somebody he took offense to Phil's comments can explain how calling Eli a HOF'er is slighting him.

                  This idea that Phil needs to call Eli one of the greatest QB's of all-time or he's taking a shot at him and the Giants is just ridiculous.

                  Eli has his moments, but he's definitely not amongst the greatest QB's that I've seen play.
                  It's hard to understand how Simms can call Eli a HoFer yet say he's not elite. It's almost like a backhanded complement.

                  "I guess he'll make the hall of fame because his team was so good around him and they made his stats look good, but he wouldn't get there himself."

                  If you're a a hall of famer, you're elite IMO.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EliDaMANning View Post
                    Good points. Saying Simms is better used to be an opinion. Now it is just a flat out incorrect statement.

                    Saying Danny Kennell was a better QB than Simms is also an opinion.
                    So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
                    The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
                    But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.
                    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                      Opinions vary, especially when a player's game is up and down.
                      I agree, but I would rather hear Simms or anyone else say that about Eli when things are going well too. I guess like fans, commentators are fickle and say things spur of the moment as well. Give Eli 3 weeks like yesterday, would Simms change his mind?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by GameTime View Post
                        dont even mention Tiki and Simms in that regard in the same breath....
                        way off base there.....
                        Tiki said Eli was not a leader.
                        Simms said Eli was not Elite.

                        Don't seem that much different.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by VBGiantsFan View Post
                          I think the misunderstanding here is, the fans are not upset by random commentators saying Eli is not elite, the fans are upset that it's a New York Giant great saying it. Simms matters to us, and we expect him to be like us, loyal to his team. Now, obviously he doesn't have to be, but the real slight is not that someone said Eli is not elite, it's that Simms said it. As fans, we expect more from our Ex players. His timing is also such that he says it when Eli is having a down few games. I didn't hear him say that at the beginning of the season.
                          No one is more loyal to the New York Giants than me and I don't think Eli is "elite". (whatever that is)
                          I think he's an outstanding player who is very inconsistent.
                          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Gimaniac View Post
                            Tiki said Eli was not a leader.
                            Simms said Eli was not Elite.

                            Don't seem that much different.
                            You're being ridiculous.
                            If you can't see the difference between Tiki's slam and Phil's comments then we are wasting our time talking about it.
                            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                              So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
                              The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
                              But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.
                              Stop talking about rules and regulations all the time. There were QB in his time that threw for much better numbers also.

                              He had an excellent coach while Eli works with an incompetant OC. All I read in your post were a bunch of "IFS." Get over it dude. Nobody is dissing Simms here, we are just clearly stating the facts. There is no argument for Simms being better than Eli, only a bunch of what if scenarios you presented.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                                So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
                                The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
                                But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.
                                My view is supported by a bunch of stats not made by it, I watched Simms play and Eli play and in my opinion Eli is the superior player. Your one and only point is always about the different era to back up your claim. If you use that logic, it is basically saying that the game has changed so much that comparisons can only be made to strengthen your argument, ie you can not compare Simms to Manning because it is a different time. What if Manning played during the time Simms did, do you think he would have preformed worse than Simms? Eli played in a run first offense for many years, and your statement about comparing the qualities of the players is spot on. Compare the fact that an assistant coach had to convince Simms to put more time in learning the offense and the audibles to Manning being a film room and preparation junky and I think that speaks volumes about some of their qualities. Is the only reason you think Simms is better because he played with different rules at a different time?
                                Last edited by Dline83; 11-26-2012, 11:09 AM. Reason: Including quote

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