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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by alentown pa View Post
    the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.
    We can all disagree about the Phil vs. Eli discussion.
    My real point is that suggesting that Eli isn't an "elite" QB isn't an insult to Eli. Its not a slam. Its not sour grapes. Its just one guy's opinion who knows a lot more than we do about playing QB in the NFL.
    And he's using his own definition of "elite". Because its very subjective.
    To me there are only 3 right now. Brady, Peyton and Brees. i don't include Rodgers yet because I don't love his mental toughness. He's a great talent and a great player but he's still a little mentally inconsistent.
    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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    • Originally posted by alentown pa View Post
      Look at last season for Eli...worst rushing attack in the league and a defense that gave up more points than the offense scored...the guy carried us...like I said you do not have to sell me on Simms, I know he is your favorite and that is cool, just don't ever accuse someone of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, when you do the same for Simms.
      Eli had a great year last year and was one of the top QB's in the league. And its true that he had no running game. But he had tremendous playmakers at WR. Probably never a better trio in Giants history. Even the 99 yard pass to Cruz was a 10 yard throw, designed to get to the sticks.

      The guy did great and there is no argument, but his supporting cast was all time great.
      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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      • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
        Lets just look at 1984.
        Phil threw for 4000 yards. Check how many guys caught as many as 50 balls for him.....Zero.
        Check how many times he was sacked..............55.

        Phil got killed in 1984. And look at the production.

        This was the O line that gave up 3 safeties in one quarter.
        Very true 0 players caught more than 50 balls that year, two had 48 and there were 8 players that had double diget receptions. Simms also threw 22 td to 18 int and completed only 53.7 of his passes.

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        • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
          Don't even try to go there. Phil threw the ball down field. He didn't have a dink and dunk offense like Montana did.
          Accuracy is measured by what you see on the field, not any stat. Completion % is effected by about 50 different things. The quality of the WR's and their ability to get open for one.
          I don't really understand how you can write off stats completely, especially completion percentage over a long period of time, and by your logic those 50 different things would be playing a roll in Eli's completion percentage as well, yet it is higher.
          Last edited by Dline83; 11-26-2012, 08:46 PM.

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          • 100 pages here we come!
            "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

            "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

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            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              We can all disagree about the Phil vs. Eli discussion.
              My real point is that suggesting that Eli isn't an "elite" QB isn't an insult to Eli. Its not a slam. Its not sour grapes. Its just one guy's opinion who knows a lot more than we do about playing QB in the NFL.
              And he's using his own definition of "elite". Because its very subjective.
              To me there are only 3 right now. Brady, Peyton and Brees. i don't include Rodgers yet because I don't love his mental toughness. He's a great talent and a great player but he's still a little mentally inconsistent.
              To be honest I could honestly care less about who says who is elite, it is just an opinion and everyone is entitled to them, and I also think that in the end it doesn't matter what people think, all that matters is what happens on the field. The thing that got me is that you made a statement that Simms was just a better football player than Manning and it made me wonder what made you think that.

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              • Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
                He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
                As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
                If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
                The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
                Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.

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                • Originally posted by zimonami View Post
                  Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
                  He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
                  As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
                  If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
                  The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
                  Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.
                  He is not defending Simms against anyone zim...I personally think Phil was great and I do not think anyone is saying other wise, I think we are just supporting the guy we have now...MH made great points, most of which I agree with but where he accuses some of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, I feel he does the same with Phil.

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                  • Originally posted by joemorrisforprez View Post
                    100 pages here we come!
                    come 100 i give up

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                    • Originally posted by alentown pa View Post
                      He is not defending Simms against anyone zim...I personally think Phil was great and I do not think anyone is saying other wise, I think we are just supporting the guy we have now...MH made great points, most of which I agree with but where he accuses some of wearing blinders when it comes to Eli, I feel he does the same with Phil.
                      Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
                      Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
                      I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
                      But, it's a lot closer than some think.
                      Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.

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                      • Originally posted by zimonami View Post
                        Getting a little tired with Morehead having to defend Phil against some who never saw him play. Phil played in a stadium that was renowned for its swirling winds. If he didn't throw one of the tightest spirals of his time his completion % would have been even worse. As it was, it surely effected his % by several points.
                        He had guys like Ernest Grey dropping 2-3 passes every single game. The receivers of Phil's time would have trouble making 3rd string on today's team.
                        As Morehead said, Phl had no short passing game.
                        If Eli had to pass in Giants stadium for his whole career his stats would be much worse.
                        The Giant offensive line was very good at run blocking, but Phil was sackedover 50+ X in 3 seasons, 2 seasons of 40+, and 5 seasons in the high 30's Eli's highest sack year was 30.
                        Hard to compare in different eras, but please don't even begin to lean on stats.
                        I saw Simms play, and I don't really see why you feel the need to defend anything, can't everyone have an opinion? The only reason I ever got started on this was because of a statement that Simms was just the better football player, which I disagree with. Then all the things used to back up that claim were focused around rule changes. i have no problem if someone prefers Simms to Eli, but i do think if someone makes a point blank claim comparing the two that others should be able to ask why.

                        For all the points you made you can argue about the high degree of turnover the Eli has dealt with, less than stellar running games, poor defenses. Simms had some of his worse games away from Giants stadium (49ers playoff loss) What about the sack ratio, does that say nothing about the qb? I think Eli himself is a big reason he gets less sacks than Simms.

                        The other thing I don't get is the hatred of stats, they do not tell the whole story, and it is easy to manipulate them to prove a point, but how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand. I think stats are an important tool to use when analyzing players, especially the new total qb rating system.

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                        • Originally posted by zimonami View Post
                          Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
                          Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
                          I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
                          But, it's a lot closer than some think.
                          Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.
                          I never knew he was ur fav zim..makes sense with ur avatar..Ipegged you as a Sam Huff or Del shofner guy...my favorite giant was Bavaro, with Armstead,Hampton, and Richie S. not far behind.

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                          • Originally posted by zimonami View Post
                            Yes, MH might be biased, but most of his points are valid.
                            Simms is my favorite Giant of all time (LT, Carson and Bavaro are close). Given that, I think Eli is the best Giant QB of all time.
                            I'm not a blind Phil supporter.
                            But, it's a lot closer than some think.
                            Phil's time was all about Marino, Kelly, and Montana... and, the Giant D. Phil rarely got credit for his solid play and helping win games.
                            but agreed about the valid points on Simms, the guy was great..my favorite Simms game was the 1986 divisional game against SF...I've watched that over and over on VHS

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                            • Originally posted by Gimaniac View Post
                              That's like saying Tiki didn't take any shots at all. He expressed his opinion.



                              Not the same thing at all.

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                              • Originally posted by Dline83 View Post

                                The other thing I don't get is the hatred of stats, they do not tell the whole story, and it is easy to manipulate them to prove a point, but how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand. I think stats are an important tool to use when analyzing players, especially the new total qb rating system.
                                Because particularly in this case, stats most certainly don't tell the whole story. Completion percentages in Simms days were just not as high as they are today, in large part due to the rule changes since then.

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