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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by Dline83 View Post
    how can you say completion percentage over a career does not matter, that I just don't understand.

    If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

    You would also consider the system Phil played in, his supporting cast, as well as the conditions at Giants Stadium.

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    • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
      If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

      You would also consider the system Phil played in, his supporting cast, as well as the conditions at Giants Stadium.
      Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.

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      • Originally posted by Drez View Post
        Because particularly in this case, stats most certainly don't tell the whole story. Completion percentages in Simms days were just not as high as they are today, in large part due to the rule changes since then.
        Guys that were over or near 60 percent completions during the 80's:

        Joe Montana
        Ken Stabler
        Danny White
        Dan Marino
        Ken Anderson
        Dan Fouts
        Dave Kraig
        Warren Moon
        Tony Eason
        Jim McMahon

        Guys that started in the mid 80s:

        Steve Young
        Hugh Millan
        Rich Gannon
        Jim Kelly
        Bernie Kosar
        Bobby Hebert

        All of the above are over 58 percent completions for their careers. Phil was at 55.4, which is also higher than a lot of good players. I just think stats are an Importent tool that I will always look at when analyzing players, like I said, they do not tell the whole story but to discount them completely seems like cutting of your nose to spit your face, but to each their own

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        • [QUOTE=Roosevelt;593545]If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

          I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?

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          • [QUOTE=Dline83;593551]
            Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
            If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

            I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?
            great point about the quality of the athletes in today's game compared to back then...it really is apples and oranges..both were great for us...people will defend the guy from their era.

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            • [QUOTE=alentown pa;593565]
              Originally posted by Dline83 View Post

              great point about the quality of the athletes in today's game compared to back then...it really is apples and oranges..both were great for us...people will defend the guy from their era.
              Thanks and you are correct that it is a hard comparison, and one that everyone is entitled to have. At the end of the day I'm just happy that both Simms and Manning were both Giants so we are able to have these discussions, it's never a bad thing when you are talking about two great players, especially when they play/played for the Giants!

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              • Originally posted by alentown pa View Post
                Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.
                A good friend of mine is a Packers fan. They used to argue between Favre and Rodgers, but not over who is better. Rodgers used to get hated on because he sent Favre packing. Favre was worshiped in Green Bay. Football is a religion to the folks over there.

                No one in Packer land was ever questioning whether or not Rodgers was great.
                http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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                • The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!

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                  • We made it, 100 pages on why Eli is a better QB then Simms!
                    Last edited by bigjeep; 11-27-2012, 10:36 AM.
                    Players come and go on the Free Agency Merry-Go-Round, but the N.Y. Giants will always be here!

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                    • Originally posted by Parademon View Post
                      The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!
                      It is not perfect and may not even be better than the old rating system for qb, but at least it tries to take into account everything that goes into a play, and I do agree that there should be a different value associated with a screen pass that ends up a td or a throw that beats double coverage that turns into a td, don't you?

                      There really is no way to accurately relay a qb performance on paper, too many intangibles go into each play to accurately map out with stats, but they do play in important roll in the analysis of players. Some of the things that are hard to map out are; pass protection, if there was any miscommunication setting the play, if everyone heard, understood, and reacted correctly to audibles being called at the line, protection changes at the line, if routes are ran correctly, if a throwing lane is there, and then all of the things the defense are doing. The one thing that I dislike the most abut it is that it gives no credit to certain plays even if there were multiple offensive formations used in previous plays to set the d up for a simple screen, or a quick throw, something that takes advantage of the formations the d is using, and the rating system certainly has a problem with the way the analysis works, because it could be subjective to the person who is looking at each game.
                      Last edited by Dline83; 11-27-2012, 09:01 AM.

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                      • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                        Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.
                        He didn't beat neither Kelly nor Marino in big spots and with the rare exception, was never credited with winning a game single handedly the way those other QBs (and Eli for that matter) have been.

                        Phil was the consummate game manager by and large.
                        I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Parademon View Post
                          The QBR rating is a joke! Plz don't anyone else bring that up!
                          Oh, but it isn't. It does NOT tell the entire story, but it IS a good indicator. I'll bet you 9 out of 10 times a QB is "better" than another one if they have 20 more QB points. A few points difference is difficult to judge because there are so many factors that come into play. But a fairly significant difference is telling.
                          http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                          http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                          http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                          Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

                          Comment


                          • neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
                            Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
                            neither is Eli.
                            they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
                            not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

                            but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

                            Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
                            Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.
                            due to the fact that I am from the Woodstock generation ...
                            my opinions may be chemically enhanced and influenced by severe episodes of memory loss

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by stormblue View Post
                              neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
                              Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
                              neither is Eli.
                              they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
                              not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

                              but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

                              Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
                              Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.
                              Too many players get into the HoF as it is, imo. But HoF players should be one in a era types. Right now, it's just Brady and Peyton imo. Even Big Ben doesn't qualify. Brees while great, doesn't have the oomph factor.

                              As much as I loved Phil, he was largely a game manager imo - mainly because that's how Parcells played him. He certainly had the ability to do more. IMO, Eli and Phil rank roughly around the same position relative to their peers. Phil was solid and a bulldog. Eli is "clutch" under 2 minutes. Eli's career is still being written. But as of now, both were/are good, but nothing to scream about.
                              Last edited by gumby74; 11-27-2012, 10:10 AM.
                              http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                              http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                              http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                              Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                                Too many players get into the HoF as it is, imo. But HoF players should be one in a era types. Right now, it's just Brady and Peyton imo. Even Big Ben doesn't qualify. Brees while great, doesn't have the oomph factor.
                                i would tend to agree.
                                due to the fact that I am from the Woodstock generation ...
                                my opinions may be chemically enhanced and influenced by severe episodes of memory loss

                                Comment

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