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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    But HoF players should be one in a era types.
    OK...let's test your theory. I am predicting HOF for Brett Favre. According to your theory...in all the time that Brett played, he should be the only one that is admitted into the HOF who played in his era...is that how it works?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by alentown pa View Post
      Simms was one of the best bad weather QBs of all time imo...However I don't get why we need to build a case for Simms,I think we can all agree how much he meant to this franchise. I personally all things considered, era, style of the game, supporting cast think Eli has been every bit as important and great for this team...We just played the Packers...I wonder if they argue Rodgers vs Favre like this.
      I agree.

      You are right that we shouldn't have to make a case for Phil. His jersey has already been retired.

      And Eli is every bit as important to our franchise as Phil. The difference is in the circumstances the team was in when they arrived.
      Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

      Comment


      • [QUOTE=Dline83;593551]
        Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
        If you've been watching the game as long as you say you have, then you know the changes in the sport which favor the offense.

        I do take those things into consideration, but do not think that means you can not use stats from that time period for arguments sake. There have been things that both players have dealt with, Eli has worked with a good amount of different players on the offense, has had the playing style of the offense change, and if you really want to get serious, the difference in the athletic abilities of players from the 80s to the 2000s, as well as the quality of the defenses from each time period. The argument to discount stats is just something I disagree with, would you buy a stock without looking at a companies history?
        A quarterback's stats don't tell the whole story, so while I don't ignore them completely, they shouldn't define a player or his career.

        For instance, 20 years from now a young fan looks through the Giant's record book and sees our longest TD pass in history - Eli's 99 yarder to Cruz against the Jets last year. No one would know it was only a 10 yard throw.
        Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by stormblue View Post
          neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
          Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
          neither is Eli.
          they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
          not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

          but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

          Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
          Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.
          how do you "take away the rings"...??????????? isn't that the ultimate goal????

          Eli's stats are more than pedestrian.....IMO especially since he is no where near being done yet.
          I love Simms and as far as I am concerned if Nameth is in then Simms should be. I get all the Nameth love but the guy had more picks then TDs , had a crappy record, and his comp % was great at all. He won a SB and was an icon. They only reasons he is in.....
          "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
          You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
            He didn't beat neither Kelly nor Marino in big spots and with the rare exception, was never credited with winning a game single handedly the way those other QBs (and Eli for that matter) have been.

            Phil was the consummate game manager by and large.
            Would you care to define "game manager"?
            Because its used in so many way it seems to have no meaning.
            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              Would you care to define "game manager"?
              Because its used in so many way it seems to have no meaning.
              A quarterback who hands the ball off a lot. Granted that's the offense we ran back in Phil's day but a large part of that was that Phil wasn't the type of QB to drive a team (LT even remarked on this).

              I can think of about two dozen games that Eli was credited with winning "single handedly". I can think of a half dozen that Phil won in this manner (and none that he won so dramatically as Eli has made a habit of).

              Looking it up on Pro Football Reference ( http://www.pro-football-reference.com ) Phil has had 17 career come backs / game winning drives, 11 of which were 4th quarter come backs in his 14 year career.

              Eli has had 25 to date, 21 of which were in the 4th quarter in 9 years.

              To compare this to one of the most elite QBs of his time, Joe Montana had 35 game winning drives, 31 of which were in the 4th quarter in his 15 year career. Eli is well on his way to breaking those numbers. To compare this to a contemporary elite QB, Tom Brady has 35 game winning drives, 25 of which were in the 4th quarter in 13 years. Eli is certainly in that ball park.

              That's the difference (to me) between a game manager (and that's not meant to be pejorative in the least) in a conservative offense and an elite game changing QB in an aggressive offense.

              I also happen to believe one dictates the other. In other words, had Phil had Eli's talent, our 80s offense wouldn't have been so conservative.
              Last edited by Kruunch; 11-27-2012, 10:55 AM.
              I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by GameTime View Post
                how do you "take away the rings"...??????????? isn't that the ultimate goal????

                Eli's stats are more than pedestrian.....IMO especially since he is no where near being done yet.
                I love Simms and as far as I am concerned if Nameth is in then Simms should be. I get all the Nameth love but the guy had more picks then TDs , had a crappy record, and his comp % was great at all. He won a SB and was an icon. They only reasons he is in.....
                Plunkett has 2 rings and he's not in.
                that's my point.....you need MAJOR stats or MAJOR rings to get in.
                or a good combination of both. i said another ring would get Eli in.
                and 4 or 5 more years of stats might do it too.

                and Namath is there because of the historical significance of that SB.....
                as it was the 1st AFC SB victory and legitimized the AFL/NFL merger.
                Last edited by stormblue; 11-27-2012, 11:00 AM.
                due to the fact that I am from the Woodstock generation ...
                my opinions may be chemically enhanced and influenced by severe episodes of memory loss

                Comment


                • Originally posted by stormblue View Post
                  neither one of them are/were top 5 at anything statistically during their playing time.
                  Simms was not the cream of the crop during his generation.
                  neither is Eli.
                  they are/were both great ny giants and i wouldn't trade either one for anyone else...
                  not Simms for Marino nor Eli for Brady , because i like home-grown-started-with-us original Giants......

                  but if you take away the rings ; both their stats are pedestrian at best.

                  Phil is not in the hall , cuz he doesn't have the stats.
                  Eli will need another ring to make it , cuz he doesn't have the stats either.
                  I disagree, not that I am saying he would get voted in today, but I do not think he needs another ring to get voted in.

                  Here are some of the accomplishments of Manning:

                  Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season
                  Most 4th quarter comebacks in a season
                  Most game winning drives in a season
                  21 career 4th quarter comebacks, 15th all-time
                  25 game winning drives, 24th all-time
                  5 game winning drives in the platoffs, 5th all-time
                  4 4th quarter comeback drives in the playoffs, 2nd all-time
                  Tied for longest pass completion and TD
                  Most road playoff wins by a QB
                  Tied NFL record for most game winning drives in a season
                  Most road wins in the regular season and postseason by a QB - this is not counting the two Super Bowls
                  Most passing yards in a postseason
                  Most connsecutive passes to begin a Super Bowl
                  Active leader for most consecutive starts by a QB
                  8th most passing yards in a single game
                  13th all time in sack percentage with 4.71
                  Has thrown at least 23 TD in six different seasons
                  Has led the Giants to 370 points or more six times, the Giants have only gained 370 or more points 10 times in their history
                  5th player in NFL history to win two Super Bowl MVP awards
                  Most first down passes in a Super Bowl combined (18 Giants, 15 Patriots)
                  Fewest turnovers in a Super Bowl
                  In 2009 Forbes named Manning the 3erd most clutch qb, and he has added quite a few come from behind victories since then
                  24 straight games with at least 200 yards passing, second longest streak in NFL history

                  Giants Records:
                  Most pass attemps in a regular season
                  Most completions in a regular season
                  Most passing yards in a regular season
                  Most interceptions thrown in a regular season
                  Most connsecutive pass completions in a regular game
                  Most career playoff touchdowns
                  Most TD passes
                  Most consecutive starts by a QB

                  Also just some stuff to think about:

                  Simms never led the Giants into the playoffs without having a top 10 scoring defense
                  Just once in Mannings first 8 seasons did he have a scoring defense ranked in the top 10

                  I think if Eli keeps playing the way he has that he will get into the HOF without winning another Super Bowl, even though I think and hope he will win at least one more.
                  Last edited by Dline83; 11-27-2012, 11:44 AM.

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=Roosevelt;593864]
                    Originally posted by Dline83 View Post

                    A quarterback's stats don't tell the whole story, so while I don't ignore them completely, they shouldn't define a player or his career.

                    For instance, 20 years from now a young fan looks through the Giant's record book and sees our longest TD pass in history - Eli's 99 yarder to Cruz against the Jets last year. No one would know it was only a 10 yard throw.
                    Exactly my point, but to denie that stats hold any importance, is incorrect in my mind. Your point also works both ways, if a young fan looked at Eli Mannings 2010 numbers and saw 25 interceptions he/she could make certain conclusions based on those stats that would not tell the whole story of why there were 25 interceptions. My point is that in conjuction with actually seeing the players we are talking about play, the stats add another layer of analysis that we would not have without them.

                    Comment


                    • [QUOTE=Dline83;593915]
                      Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post

                      Exactly my point, but to denie that stats hold any importance, is incorrect in my mind. Your point also works both ways, if a young fan looked at Eli Mannings 2010 numbers and saw 25 interceptions he/she could make certain conclusions based on those stats that would not tell the whole story of why there were 25 interceptions. My point is that in conjuction with actually seeing the players we are talking about play, the stats add another layer of analysis that we would not have without them.
                      No one is saying that stats don't matter. they certainly do. Its funny that the Eli homers used to say that they don't matter when his weren't very good. But I digress.
                      What I am saying is that comparing stats from era to era is very hard to do. Also stats depend on a lot of factors like the quality of weapons around you and the system they played in. And obviously the rules each player played in, the changes in modern offensive and defensive systems.
                      So you have to use your judgement.
                      Some of us watched every one of Phils 25 passes in SB 21 last week in this thread. My first thought was that Eli simply can't throw the ball like that. Those were absolute darts thrown with great accuracy and with a great release.
                      So we can list all the stats and facts about each guys career. Ultimately we use our judgement based on what we see or have seen.
                      I've made mine. We all have a right to our opinion. But to say (like I've seen) that Eli is now the best QB in Giants history because he just passed Phil's TD total is ridiculous.
                      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by stormblue View Post
                        Plunkett has 2 rings and he's not in.
                        that's my point.....you need MAJOR stats or MAJOR rings to get in.
                        or a good combination of both. i said another ring would get Eli in.
                        and 4 or 5 more years of stats might do it too.

                        and Namath is there because of the historical significance of that SB.....
                        as it was the 1st AFC SB victory and legitimized the AFL/NFL merger.
                        Plunkett has more picks then TDs and has a sub 53% comp.....
                        also had only 25k+ yards
                        By the time Eli's career ends he will have major stats and rings....he already has 30+K yards, almost 60% comp, and more TD's then picks...
                        Like I said I love Simms and it was a different time in the NFL when he played. But to say Eli isnt as good of a QB is just not how I think about it. But thats just me.....
                        Last edited by GameTime; 11-27-2012, 11:32 AM.
                        "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
                        You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dline83 View Post
                          I disagree, not that I am saying he would get voted in today, but I do not think he needs another ring to get voted in.

                          Here are some of the accomplishments of Manning:

                          Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season
                          Most 4th quarter comebacks in a season
                          Most game winning drives in a season
                          21 career 4th quarter comebacks, 15th all-time
                          25 game winning drives, 24th all-time
                          5 game winning drives in the platoffs, 5th all-time
                          4 4th quarter comeback drives in the playoffs, 2nd all-time
                          Tied for longest pass completion and TD
                          Most road playoff wins by a QB
                          Tied NFL record for most game winning drives in a season
                          Most road wins in the regular season and postseason by a QB - this is not counting the two Super Bowls
                          Most passing yards in a postseason
                          Most connsecutive passes to begin a Super Bowl
                          Active leader for most consecutive starts by a QB
                          8th most passing yards in a single game
                          13th all time in sack percentage with 4071
                          Has thrown at least 23 TD in six different seasons
                          Has led the Giants to 370 points or more six times, the Giants have only gained 370 or more points 10 times in their history
                          5th player in NFL history to win two Super Bowl MVP awards
                          Most first down passes in a Super Bowl combined (18 Giants, 15 Patriots)
                          Fewest turnovers in a Super Bowl
                          In 2009 Forbes named Manning the 3erd most clutch qb, and he has added quite a few come from behind victories since then
                          24 straight games with at least 200 yards passing, second longest streak in NFL history

                          Giants Records:
                          Most pass attemps in a regular season
                          Most completions in a regular season
                          Most passing yards in a regular season
                          Most interceptions thrown in a regular season
                          Most connsecutive pass completions in a regular game
                          Most career playoff touchdowns
                          Most TD passes
                          Most consecutive starts by a QB

                          Also just some stuff to think about:

                          Simms never led the Giants into the playoffs without having a top 10 scoring defense
                          Just once in Mannings first 8 seasons did he have a scoring defense ranked in the top 10

                          I think if Eli keeps playing the way he has that he will get into the HOF without winning another Super Bowl, even though I think and hope he will win at least one more.
                          all pretty good stuff.....but
                          half of those stats are 4th qtr stuff that was a direct result of stinking it up for the 1st 3 qtrs.
                          i'm not gonna go down the whole list , but the 99 yarder was only 9 by Eli and 90 by Cruz

                          the other half the list are ny giants records that aren't all that anyway.

                          now his consecutive starting streak is amazing.

                          but he also has 140 int's to go with those 200 td's.
                          Brees , for example is 312 vs 157.

                          but ...he still has 5 or so more years ....so he will probably wind up with enough stuff to get in ...Rings and Stats.
                          due to the fact that I am from the Woodstock generation ...
                          my opinions may be chemically enhanced and influenced by severe episodes of memory loss

                          Comment


                          • Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=Morehead State;593925]
                              Originally posted by Dline83 View Post
                              No one is saying that stats don't matter. they certainly do. Its funny that the Eli homers used to say that they don't matter when his weren't very good. But I digress.
                              What I am saying is that comparing stats from era to era is very hard to do. Also stats depend on a lot of factors like the quality of weapons around you and the system they played in. And obviously the rules each player played in, the changes in modern offensive and defensive systems.
                              So you have to use your judgement.
                              Some of us watched every one of Phils 25 passes in SB 21 last week in this thread. My first thought was that Eli simply can't throw the ball like that. Those were absolute darts thrown with great accuracy and with a great release.
                              So we can list all the stats and facts about each guys career. Ultimately we use our judgement based on what we see or have seen.
                              I've made mine. We all have a right to our opinion. But to say (like I've seen) that Eli is now the best QB in Giants history because he just passed Phil's TD total is ridiculous.
                              I completely agree! I guess that was what I was trying to say earlier, that if you had said that Simms was your favorite Giants QB, I would not have even chimmed in with a comment, but the first thing that I saw was that you wrote that Simms was just a better football player, which to me sounded more like a statement than an opinion, which made me wonder why you thought that. I also agree that there are many different factors that go into reading stats and that it is not as simple as comparing numbers on paper. I also agree that Eli having broken Simms td record should not be the single reason why he is now automatically considered to be the best qb in Giants history, I do think that it adds more credence to that argument thought. You are completely correct that everyone is entitled to have an opinion, and it is also a nice thing to be able to disagree about!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by dezzzR View Post
                                Eli Manning is fourth-fastest active QB to reach 200 career TD passes (132 games). Big bro Peyton was fastest (106)
                                I saw that on FB..Its not even close to being true.
                                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                                Comment

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