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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
    But what does that have to do with him being a good quarter back? Not every quarter back is going to have legendary moments in every game. Peyton certainly didn't look legendary against the chiefs this past week.
    I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.

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    • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
      I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.
      So is being as you say "machine like" better than being clutch in your opinion?

      I'm not knocking your opinion, I just want to know.
      Mood: WOOF!

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      • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
        I'm not saying that legendary moments are always going to happen but there's something about the other QBs when they get in the zone and they seem to hit that stride on a more frequent basis than Eli. They become almost machine like as if they aren't even from this planet. They'll say Eli was clutch which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of but he won't be viewed as extraordinary on an NFL level like Peyton or Brady.
        They will see his two SB wins. Which came against Brady no less, who's to say people won't assume he was "extraordinary"?
        Last edited by Rusty192; 11-28-2012, 05:07 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
          So is being as you say "machine like" better than being clutch in your opinion?

          I'm not knocking your opinion, I just want to know.
          On a minute-to-minute basis and in the regular season, I'd say it is. For the playoffs, there isn't any other QB I'd want on my team over Eli. He played on that machine like level last year starting with the Falcons. The way I see it, and people can certainly disagree, is that when people talk about top notch QB play, Eli won't be one of the first names mentioned. It just happens to come with the era he is apart of and as a little brother myself, I can feel for Eli being an awesome QB who is overshadowed by his even better bigger brother lol.

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          • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
            They will see his two SB wins. Which came against Brady no less, who's to say people won't assume he was "extraordinary"?
            Outside of the 2007 playoffs, 2011 season + playoffs, and a few games (like this year's TB game), there's not much memorable moments on a regular basis for the average NFL fan. He will obviously go down in Giants lore as extraordinary but I'm not sure that will be the case for everyone else.

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            • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
              Tyree Helmet Catch, Manningham pass to the sidelines, somehow not falling into two pieces against the 49ers pass rush...things like that. As of now, he won't be forgotten in NFL lore though people will say "Yeah, he had those moments but he was too inconsistent on a game to game basis".
              I think you have that reversed. People will remember him *now* like that because they can see him play. 20 years from now he'll be lauded as one of the best QBs of his generation.

              Hindsight always comes with rose-colored glasses. Just ask Simms
              I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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              • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                Outside of the 2007 playoffs, 2011 season + playoffs, and a few games (like this year's TB game), there's not much memorable moments on a regular basis for the average NFL fan. He will obviously go down in Giants lore as extraordinary but I'm not sure that will be the case for everyone else.
                That's your opinion though. If the average fan sees 2 SB wins, a few over 4000 yd seasons, most TD's thrown in the 4th quarter etc...These a just examples that he wasn't a slouch in the reg season.

                Also most playoff road wins. None of your other flashy QB's can attest to that. And as I said before, to beat what some consider the greatest to play the game in Brady. Twice. On the biggest stage.



                If the average fan in the future sees that, they'd be hard pressed to say Eli wasn't one the of best QB's to play the position.

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                • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
                  I think you have that reversed. People will remember him *now* like that because they can see him play. 20 years from now he'll be lauded as one of the best QBs of his generation.

                  Hindsight always comes with rose-colored glasses. Just ask Simms
                  Depends on one's definition of best I suppose. Best as getting his team further to the Lombardi versus others? Best as in individual talent from a pure passing standpoint? Montana is a good example of the first definition I listed but I don't think you can put him in a discussion with the likes of Marino with the 2nd definition. If I'm sitting down with a young kid who wants to be a promising QB beyond HS, I show him Peyton tape or Marino tape.

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                  • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                    That's your opinion though. If the average fan sees 2 SB wins, a few over 4000 yd seasons, most TD's thrown in the 4th quarter etc...These a just examples that he wasn't a slouch in the reg season.

                    Also most playoff road wins. None of your other flashy QB's can attest to that. And as I said before, to beat what some consider the greatest to play the game in Brady. Twice. On the biggest stage.



                    If the average fan in the future sees that, they'd be hard pressed to say Eli wasn't one the of best QB's to play the position.
                    You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?

                    Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?

                    Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.

                    I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.

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                    • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                      Depends on one's definition of best I suppose. Best as getting his team further to the Lombardi versus others? Best as in individual talent from a pure passing standpoint? Montana is a good example of the first definition I listed but I don't think you can put him in a discussion with the likes of Marino with the 2nd definition. If I'm sitting down with a young kid who wants to be a promising QB beyond HS, I show him Peyton tape or Marino tape.
                      Both are credible sources of being "best" and have been up to now.

                      You have your stats guys (Marino, Peyton, etc ...), your "legendary moment" guys (Elway, Eli) and multiple ring guys (Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, etc ...).

                      If you look at it like that, you can actually make a strong case for Elway being the best QB in football history, since he's managed to be in all three groups.
                      I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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                      • I'll say this much in defense of Eli and that is the fact he is hurt in terms of perception by what I would call overrated defenses during the Giants championship runs. People (as in the general fan) think that the 2007 Giants D was some beast because of how they rattled Brady in the SB but always forget that the Pats D was actually superior or how the 2011 Giants D was ranked in the bottom 5 for pass D even though most people remember them yet again for their playoff success. With a franchise known for it's defense, Eli faces an uphill battle in this regard compared to the likes of Peyton or Brady.

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                        • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                          You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?

                          Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?

                          Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.

                          I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.
                          This isnt about the reg season stats because those guys win. Still they aren't even blowing him out of the water in that regard either. He was about 60 yards short of throwing for 5,000. Yeah, that happens all the time lol

                          If you want to argue that perhaps Eli's success is more philosophy then what about guys like Brees, or Rodgers? Goes both ways.

                          Yeah no crap he didn't play defense against Brady, but if Im looking at Eli's career and I see that he was able to accomplish beating the legendary Bilichick/Brady led team, stomping over AR's squad en route to said SB, then yeah, that is enough for me. You cant do that and not be of the best ever. Eli's legacy will speak for itself. All Fantasy Football aside...
                          Last edited by Rusty192; 11-28-2012, 05:52 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                            You bring up some great points but you have to admit that 4000 yd seasons aren't as impressive as they used to be and the guys we are comparing Eli to now (Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc) easily achieve those feats. The TDs in the 4th quarter for the 2011 season is a great individual achievement but how do they compare to multiple regular season MVPs or what about Brees and Brady both breaking Marino's most yards in a single season record?
                            Single season passing yards is more a testament to Marino then it is for Brees and Brady since they latter two only accomplished this once the receiver rules were in place. If we're being pundits about it. Records are definitely a highlight but again you run into the Montana vs. Marino debate.

                            Road playoff wins is another great achievement but couldn't that be argued to be more of a team accomplishment and perhaps more of a sign of the success Coughlin has on the road in the playoffs?
                            I agree ... road play off wins is a dubious distinction at best as it means you weren't good enough during the regular season to merit a home game. It's a fun talking point on an episode of "The Football Life" but I don't think stands up quite as strong as the more common stats do.

                            Eli beating Brady is a tough one. Some people will see it that way but others see the two QBs just playing different defenses. Brady certainly put the Patriots in good enough spots to beat the Giants in both SBs but his defense couldn't hold. It's very debatable.
                            This I think this is one of Eli's biggest plugs ... both SBs ended with the ball in Brady's hands. Additionally, the 2007 Patriots are widely considered one of the best NFL teams ever.

                            I'm with Harooni (lol) that Eli could use a regular season MVP to really cement his place in the HoF today. That's just me though.
                            I do prize league MVPs over Super Bowl MVPs, however there has never been a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who hasn't made the HoF (which is why I think Eli makes it if Martians kidnapped him today).
                            I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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                            • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
                              I agree ... road play off wins is a dubious distinction at best as it means you weren't good enough during the regular season to merit a home game. It's a fun talking point on an episode of "The Football Life" but I don't think stands up quite as strong as the more common stats do.
                              I dont consider it to be this great stat per se. but it does show tenacity in being able to go into a hostile environment in the playoffs, and come out victorious.

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                              • I think we can all agree that this is much needed:



                                Also, be on the lookout for harrycarson, he is not really Harry Carson. You have been warned.

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