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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
    And most of the time when the Chargers and Colts played, Peyton was outperformed by Rivers. One could say Rivers beat him OR maybe that the Chargers D just had Peyton's number all those years? Look at Eli vs. the Redskins defense in recent years. I wouldn't really say Grossman outplayed Eli lol.



    Perhaps you are right. I see it as a disservice to all the other players myself but I'll learn to accept it in time.
    BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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    • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
      BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.
      With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.

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      • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
        I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

        Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.
        So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

        You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.
        Last edited by Rusty192; 11-28-2012, 06:40 PM.

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        • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
          With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.
          Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.
          Mood: WOOF!

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          • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
            So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

            You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.
            It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

            Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.

            Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.
            I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.

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            • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
              It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

              Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.



              I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.
              It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.
              Mood: WOOF!

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              • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.
                Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P

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                • Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
                  It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.
                  True...true. You could argue Eli's statistics suffer because we love to run it in the red zone more than most teams. KG's system isn't exactly a great one if you plan to make a HoF based on stats lol.

                  Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P
                  You can't be carried like Dilfer was for the Ravens to a regular season MVP award. Big Ben has two SB victories but how much can we really respect that first victory on an individual basis? It's not as cut and dry as Eli having more SBs over Peyton. One could also bring up the horrible playoff performances he had outside of the 2007 and 2011 seasons as well.

                  My point about Grossman was that playoff success can't be awarded to the QB all the time because you have guys like him who are only there to avoid huge mistakes. Not saying Eli is that guy but it's my way of saying we don't want to set a precedent of measuring QBs by victories.

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                  • What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?

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                    • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                      What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?
                      I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

                      Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.

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                      • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                        I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

                        Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.
                        I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?

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                        • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                          I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

                          Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.
                          But people don't look at it that way, especially when it comes to Eli.

                          You can see evidence now.
                          Aaron Rodgers played poorly against us because his offensive line sucks. Maybe that is true.

                          But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
                          Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.
                          Mood: WOOF!

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                          • Originally posted by Rusty192 View Post
                            I got the impression by you, whether it was intentional or not, by saying QB regular season accomplishments, mean more than a SB win, which is the team. So the rest of the team wasn't playing in the first scenario too then?
                            Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

                            A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?

                            But when we were losing games, it was ELI SUCKS OMG1!11 2010 ELI. Doesn't matter that our receivers were dropping everything. Doesn't matter that Ahmad was fumbling the ball, doesn't matter that our defense couldn't get any pressure and our secondary got beat on every play.
                            Don't get me wrong, Eli wasn't playing well, but people were acting like he was the sole reason we were losing games.
                            Live by the glory of the QB, die by the glory of the QB. 2010 Eli wasn't good at all but he obviously wasn't the sole reason for our troubles. You sort of tie into my point in that people focus too much on a few players when it comes to victories or losses when it is much more complex than that. David Diehl has two SB rings but there are a ton of OL I'd rather have.

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                            • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                              It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

                              Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.



                              I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.
                              This is where I run into a problem with your logic. How do you explain not crediting Eli's regular season last year with no running game and a poor defense during the most part of the regular season, he literally caried the team in a bunch of games. How about the degree of turnover at positions for Eli vs. Payton? Payton has had some amazing wr during his time in Indy. What about all of the road playoff wins for Eli, I mean the two times we went to the Super Bowl we had some rough roads there, even historic. Wouldn't you also say it would be hard to get a MVP award or make game to game accomplishments individually, why is it that Manning gets credit for those things as an individual but for the Super Bowls and playoffs it is all because of the team, Eli was the one throwing the ball in Green Bay the first playoff trip there, and what it was like 5 degrees, yet that gains no individual merits?
                              Last edited by Dline83; 11-28-2012, 07:27 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                                Many average or even bad players have earned SB rings in NFL history. The same can't be said about the MVP award because it is based more on a player's individual talent and what he produced on the field in a 16 game stretch. Not every victory is because Eli carried the team and the same can be said about Peyton and Brady too. Sure, Peyton helped the Broncos beat the Chargers from a 24 point deficit but he also had help from Chris Harris getting two INTS against Rivers.

                                A SB is a big game but it is what it is. Another 60 minute period. How much does that weigh against the rest of the season? Was Eli's playoff run and SB performance enough to say he was the best QB that season even over MVP Aaron Rodgers?
                                I don't know about you, but a SB means more to me than a pretty season complete with shiny stats. It isn't really just "another 60 game" its the Superbowl championship! What do you play the game for? To throw for X amount of TD's? No, the ultimate goal is the SB. And to say it means less in a QB's career because he doesn't always have the great reg stats, but "just wins the SB" is not true. Eli won those SB's because he helped bring the team there and played great. He didn't ride the coattails like some third string scrub. These facts are what will cement him as a legendary QB in NFL history.

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