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Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

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  • Its official. Brees is no longer elite.

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    • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
      I have DirectI understand perfectly that Eli is human and makes mistakes just like any other quarterback. What I'm pointing out are passing issues that are atypical of a great QB.

      As for Simms career, if you're calling me insane, what do you call Wellington Mara (who's lived his entire life on the football field) and the Giants organization for retiring his jersey? Sorry, but every player and coach that played with him and against him has very high regards for him as a player. I trust these guys and my own eyes over a bunch of clueless fans that would cheer a guy when he's hurt.

      I used argue with a couple of guys (prior to 86) about Simms. They would blame him for all our struggles, telling me he was a bum and that he'd NEVER win the big game. Well, after he got done killing it in the big game, they reluctantly had to shut up. The only fans that could have possibly wanted Phil gone after 86 had to be similar fans to these two guys. Someone who thought they knew what they were talking about but didn't.
      Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.

      I love Phil, the team he played for and what he did for us however his numbers were pedestrian at best and he was never a great thrower (wildly inaccurate past 15 yards). He was known for liking to throw long all day long and had to be reigned in because he couldn't complete those. Conversely, his best throw was the seam pass which we exploited when we could. Many say that he played in a conservative run oriented offense ... I say we ran a conservative run oriented offense BECAUSE of Phil's limitations.

      Conversely we currently run an aggressive pass oriented offense (and the most prolific offense in Giants history I might add) BECAUSE Eli is that kind of QB. If you want to say that Brees or Rodgers is better or that Eli isn't elite, then that's your opinion and you have every right to it.

      However you seem to have a bad case of rose colored glasses which apparently change to bright green when viewing other lawns.
      Last edited by Kruunch; 11-30-2012, 12:01 PM.
      I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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      • Originally posted by Dline83 View Post
        I think one of the things that we are all kind of skipping over is that becoming great/elite/whatever you want to call it, is a progression. Simms had great games and bad games, Eli has had great games and bad games, all the great qbs have great games and bad games. I agree to say Eli is one of the best qbs to ever play the game is premature, it really is impossible to judge that until we have a complete body of work to look at. To say he is on his way, in my opinion, is a fair statement, but again, that's my opinion, not everyone has to agree with that. I think to say the passing issues are atypical of a great qb is a bit misleading, yes Eli sometimes can be off target, but so can everyone, Bree's did many of the things last night that you mentioned about Eli, throwing a bullet pass on a check down to the rb, one hopping an open wr, ect. As for myself being biased, you might be correct about that, but I have no problem pointing out faults in Eli, I just think that the positive far out ways the negative.
        So then Phil saying Eli isn't elite right now makes sense and no one should have blown his comments out of proportion.

        That's what I've been saying all along.
        Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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        • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
          Phil Simms is my all-time favorite Giant which automatically makes Eli my second favorite QB.

          We obviously agree more than we disagree but I will say that I don't get down on Eli (or any other player) for pressing, but I do get down on Eli when he miscues on an easy play.
          Simms can always be your favorite Giant but he doesnt need to be the best. One of my fave Giants is Rodney Hampton and he's not the best running back they have had....
          "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
          You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

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          • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
            Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.

            I love Phil, the team he played for and what he did for us however his numbers were pedestrian at best and he was never a great thrower (wildly inaccurate past 15 yards). He was known for liking to throw long all day long and had to be reigned in because he couldn't complete those. Conversely, his best throw was the seam pass which we exploited when we could. Many say that he played in a conservative run oriented offense ... I say we ran a conservative run oriented offense BECAUSE of Phil's limitations.

            Conversely we currently run an aggressive pass oriented offense (and the most prolific offense in Giants history I might add) BECAUSE Eli is that kind of QB. If you want to say that Brees or Rodgers is better or that Eli isn't elite, then that's your opinion and you have every right to it.

            However you seem to have a bad case of rose colored glasses which apparently change to bright green when viewing other lawns.
            Eli is on my lawn so I don't see it that way. I'm simply giving my opinion on both QB's. But my main point in all of this is that I don't think Phil was off base in his comments.

            I would think playing at level which earns you a league MVP award puts you in the elite category. Eli (IMO) has had one great complete season in his 8 year career. He's had a lot of great moments so don't get me wrong, including of course the unfathomable ending in 2007. Eli is a special QB for sure, but he's not a great passer. Obviously that doesn't matter when it comes to getting the job done, but it does matter (I believe) when we're considering where he ranks at his position.

            We must agree to disagree on Phil's career because I just don't see as you call it. Frst you're stating that Phil was "wildly inaccurate past 15 yards," and then you go on to say "his best throw was the seam pass." Weren't all those seam passes over 15 yards?

            Next, BP used to infuriate Ron Earhart for cutting the balls out of his offensive game plan. Bill's strategy was to get a 7 pt. lead and then try and run out the clock. We used to throw only when we had to. If you think playing QB for Parcells (at that time) was conducive for a QB's success, there's not much I can say. Only that Bill Walsh wanted Simms for his offense. And Bill Walsh knew a thing or two about quarterbacks and offenses.
            Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
              Eli is on my lawn so I don't see it that way. I'm simply giving my opinion on both QB's. But my main point in all of this is that I don't think Phil was off base in his comments.
              I think he was a touch off base ... especially if you consider that Eli is going to most likely play at least another five years. Even at pedestrian numbers that will put his stats among the best of all time.

              He came off sounding a bit like sour grapes ... especially with the timing of beating Simms TD record.

              I would think playing at level which earns you a league MVP award puts you in the elite category. Eli (IMO) has had one great complete season in his 8 year career. He's had a lot of great moments so don't get me wrong, including of course the unfathomable ending in 2007. Eli is a special QB for sure, but he's not a great passer. Obviously that doesn't matter when it comes to getting the job done, but it does matter (I believe) when we're considering where he ranks at his position.
              Ok, at least that's a measuring stick. Would you consider Rich Gannon a great QB? He won a league MVP. I'd call him a good QB who had one great season in a long career. How about Roger Staubach? I'd say (and have said) he was a great QB and he never won a league MVP. Or Troy Aikman? or Jim Kelly?

              We must agree to disagree on Phil's career because I just don't see as you call it. Frst you're stating that Phil was "wildly inaccurate past 15 yards," and then you go on to say "his best throw was the seam pass." Weren't all those seam passes over 15 yards?
              10-15 yard passes. The reason it was his best pass was because he could hit people in stride (no mean feat).

              Next, BP used to infuriate Ron Earhart for cutting the balls out of his offensive game plan. Bill's strategy was to get a 7 pt. lead and then try and run out the clock. We used to throw only when we had to. If you think playing QB for Parcells (at that time) was conducive for a QB's success, there's not much I can say. Only that Bill Walsh wanted Simms for his offense. And Bill Walsh knew a thing or two about quarterbacks and offenses.
              BP went on to New England, Jets and the Cowboys and had prolific passing teams.
              I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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              • Simms most "accurate" years were the last 2 years of his career. Don't think it is far fetched to believe the same might be true for Eli.

                http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SimmPh00.htm

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                • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                  So then Phil saying Eli isn't elite right now makes sense and no one should have blown his comments out of proportion.

                  That's what I've been saying all along.
                  Like I've been saying, that is his opinion, I never made a comment about Simms saying Eli was elite, all of my arguments were started because Morehead State said that Simms was just a better football player then Manning and then shifted into my argument that Manning is one of the greats of his time.

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                  • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
                    Retired numbers are no indication of a player's "greatness", just the ownership's regard for the player. Totally separate issue.
                    Are you serious with this?
                    Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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                    • "eli isnt a great passer"...i dont even know how to begin with that one...

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                      • Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
                        I think he was a touch off base ... especially if you consider that Eli is going to most likely play at least another five years. Even at pedestrian numbers that will put his stats among the best of all time.

                        He came off sounding a bit like sour grapes ... especially with the timing of beating Simms TD record.



                        Ok, at least that's a measuring stick. Would you consider Rich Gannon a great QB? He won a league MVP. I'd call him a good QB who had one great season in a long career. How about Roger Staubach? I'd say (and have said) he was a great QB and he never won a league MVP. Or Troy Aikman? or Jim Kelly?



                        10-15 yard passes. The reason it was his best pass was because he could hit people in stride (no mean feat).



                        BP went on to New England, Jets and the Cowboys and had prolific passing teams.
                        If Phil had a history of taking shots at Eli I might believe what some of you are suggesting, but Phil has always spoken highly of Eli so I'm not inclined to think it's personal. Even years ago when Eli was struggling with his consistency, Phil always propped him up. I think the answer is pretty simple. Phil was asked the question when Eli was in a funk. That's the only reason why I believe he said that. Let's face it, it's not like we are talking about Dan Marino's record. I'm pretty sure Phil knew his record/s would be broken someday.

                        When I mentioned the MVP, I was talking about that on top of what he's done. Not just one MVP award. Whether we agree that Eli is elite, we probably all agree that he's pretty damn good.

                        As for Parcells, I have to give him credit for evolving with the game, although, early on I thought he was a terrible offensive coach. Many times I felt we won in spite of Bill's coaching decisions.
                        Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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                        • i guess ill start with "eli has the highest % completion on passes 20 yds or more, as well as the most passes traveled 20 yds in the air or more over the last what, 3 seasons?"
                          the fact he is able to be so competitive with other qbs passer completion, qb rating when he's making so many more difficult throws a year, to me, means he is one helluva passer.
                          peyton manning throws the ugliest ducks ive ever seen...guess what, they all are on target. is he not "a great passer"? eli doesnt always have the prettiest ball, he also rarely has the time to set his feet and plant into the throw with how quickly he consistently gets rid of the ball. he's able to make those passes 20 yds or more with more success than other qbs while often having to throw off his back foot...eli's saving grace imo is his ability as a passer. he makes stick throws in situations other qbs simply cannot ie the sb pass to MM...

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                          • All QBs wether great, elite, thebest of the best, or whatever have quirks so to speak. Eli's happens to be boneheaded playes here and there and some inconsistency. Ok....so what. Look at that the overall picture thus far and the results....not too bad right?....
                            "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
                            You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

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                            • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post
                              As for Parcells, I have to give him credit for evolving with the game, although, early on I thought he was a terrible offensive coach. Many times I felt we won in spite of Bill's coaching decisions.
                              Ohhh gotta disagree there big guy.

                              As for Simms comments, I believe they were more attention driven then anything. Simms is an analyst/commentator and he needs talking point material as much as anyone. But yeah I think part of it was maliciously driven. Phil has never struck me as the overly evolved type.
                              I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by GameTime View Post
                                Simms can always be your favorite Giant but he doesnt need to be the best. One of my fave Giants is Rodney Hampton and he's not the best running back they have had....
                                Ever since last season I haven't said Phil was the best. But what I've always said and still believe is that Phil threw the ball much better than Eli does. Eli's accuracy has definitely improved but after this latest slump he's shown that he still hasn't out grown his bad habits. Who knows, maybe he never will.
                                Torque it till it breaks, then back off a 1/4 turn.

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