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One problem about David Wilson

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  • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
    Doug Martin overtook LeGarrette Blount who did rush for 1k yards in his rookie season so it's not like TB had nothing there before. The issue with Blount was his lack of pass blocking ability which Martin came into the NFL having some prior experience (but it wasn't perfect). What I mean by "he doesn't get it" is that he hasn't displayed the proper skillset to be a feature back like Bradshaw has. The pass blocking obviously isn't there due to the low amount of snaps and on some of his very limited carries, he hasn't displayed the vision to be the type of RB the Giants like. I promise you there is no frustration from the Skins loss that factors into my Wilson evaluation. I'm just being honest in with what I see.

    I'm not sure where you see the similarities in Tiki and Wilson unless you are just saying that because they both have been Giants. Shady or CJ Spiller would be a more appropriate comparison but the problem is that our scheme isn't really fit for those kind of RBs.

    Prince also isn't a good comparison because he was injured for half of the season and there was no way we were going to put a rookie CB out in that stretch of games that featured the Packers and Saints. Plus, as pointed out before, the two positions are so different and the development time usually takes longer for defensive backs in the modern NFL.
    why does he not have the proper skill set? you can tell that from a handful of carries? tom brady didnt havre the proper skill set,,not saying this kid is the tom brady of running backs but you see what I am saying. To say this kid doesnt get it doesnt make sense,,he is a rookie,,learning the pro game behind an entrenched starter. you could have taken over blount,,he is a head case and not that good,,prince is a perfect comparison because up until a few weeks ago the same was said about him,,cant cover,,too slow,,wont pan out,,should have drated somebody else,,blah, blah,,,once given a chance,,solid,,,,,and this kid is in the mold of tiki barber,,small,,pass catching back,,,best in open space,,I mean it's a no brainer,,,throw this kid some screens,,use him on some misdirection plays and you will see a better player,,cj spiller is an awful comparison because his only asset is speed,,and I believe he is faster than wilson as well. I said in an earlier post that we should use him like shady,,play to his strengths. there just is not enough meat on the bone to make any judgements just yet.

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    • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
      Doug Martin overtook LeGarrette Blount who did rush for 1k yards in his rookie season so it's not like TB had nothing there before. The issue with Blount was his lack of pass blocking ability which Martin came into the NFL having some prior experience (but it wasn't perfect). What I mean by "he doesn't get it" is that he hasn't displayed the proper skillset to be a feature back like Bradshaw has. The pass blocking obviously isn't there due to the low amount of snaps and on some of his very limited carries, he hasn't displayed the vision to be the type of RB the Giants like. I promise you there is no frustration from the Skins loss that factors into my Wilson evaluation. I'm just being honest in with what I see.

      I'm not sure where you see the similarities in Tiki and Wilson unless you are just saying that because they both have been Giants. Shady or CJ Spiller would be a more appropriate comparison but the problem is that our scheme isn't really fit for those kind of RBs.

      Prince also isn't a good comparison because he was injured for half of the season and there was no way we were going to put a rookie CB out in that stretch of games that featured the Packers and Saints. Plus, as pointed out before, the two positions are so different and the development time usually takes longer for defensive backs in the modern NFL.

      Your compairing Bradshaw to LeGarretteIpunchmyownteamatesintheface. The guy only has 2 years in the league as well so you can't compaire Bradshaw with that ****.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
        It's normal for the Giants
        You asked for facts and I gave them...

        and after looking through the Giants' #1 picks' rookie seasons, Wilson still sticks out:

        Through the same period:
        Code:
        Prince Amukamara:
        7 games / 0 starts 1 interception 3 passes defended 12 tackles / 2 assists
        Jason Pierre-Paul:
        16 games / 0 starts 4.5 sacks 6 passes defended 2 forced fumbles 17 tackles/ 5 assists
        Hakeem Nicks:
        14 games / 6 starts 47 receptions 790 yards 6 touchdowns
        Kenny Phillips:
        16 games / 3 starts 1 interception 50 tackles / 7 assists
        Aaron Ross:
        15 games / 9 starts 1.5 sacks 3 interceptions / 1 touchdown 35 tackles / 7 assists
        Mathias Kiwanuka
        16 games / 9 starts 4 sacks 2 interceptions 2 forced fumbles 44 tackles / 9 assists
        Corey Webster:
        15 games / 2 starts 5 passes defended 2 forced fumbles 38 tackles / 1 assist
        Eli Manning:
        9 games / 7 starts 197 attempts 1043 yards 6 touchdowns
        Obviously there are still four games remaining so this could very well change, but as it stands, Wilson is the first #1 pick of this current group to be used so sparingly.


        Originally posted by ELI_HOF_NYG View Post
        roanoke,,you are one of the more knowledgable posters on this board, you get it,,,,,some people will just never be happy.
        It's not about being unhappy, it's just confusing. Why draft a guy if you aren't going to use him?
        Last edited by Flip Empty; 12-05-2012, 07:32 PM.

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        • Originally posted by ELI_HOF_NYG View Post
          why does he not have the proper skill set? you can tell that from a handful of carries? tom brady didnt havre the proper skill set,,not saying this kid is the tom brady of running backs but you see what I am saying. To say this kid doesnt get it doesnt make sense,,he is a rookie,,learning the pro game behind an entrenched starter. you could have taken over blount,,he is a head case and not that good,,prince is a perfect comparison because up until a few weeks ago the same was said about him,,cant cover,,too slow,,wont pan out,,should have drated somebody else,,blah, blah,,,once given a chance,,solid,,,,,and this kid is in the mold of tiki barber,,small,,pass catching back,,,best in open space,,I mean it's a no brainer,,,throw this kid some screens,,use him on some misdirection plays and you will see a better player,,cj spiller is an awful comparison because his only asset is speed,,and I believe he is faster than wilson as well. I said in an earlier post that we should use him like shady,,play to his strengths. there just is not enough meat on the bone to make any judgements just yet.
          I've already told you what he is lacking so far at this point - lack of pass protection skills (most rookies lack this to be fair) and mediocre vision to be an inside runner like the Giants covet.

          Blount's actually a decent runner but the issue was that he was so poor in pass blocking, it was quite evident to the opposing defenses that a run play was happening anytime he was in the game.

          Prince is not a good comparison at all and those who said he can't cover because of physical limitations were incorrect. Other than short arms, he has the perfect build and frame to be a shutdown corner in this league. Some people freaked out because of the Jacksonville preseason game but other than that, he has been money and there has been little complaints about him. He's the kind of player you can plug into any system and he will do wonders for you. Wilson...that's debatable.

          Doug Martin is more like Tiki when you watch the tape. Wilson isn't as tough on the inside like those two are and he prefers to avoid defenders like CJ Spiller does instead of taking them on with his leg power. Spiller is a faster north-south runner but Wilson has a better burst of agility and I'll give you that much. I made a judgement on his vision which hasn't changed since VT so there is enough meat on the bones so to speak.

          I understand you like this kid's explosive running and what he can potentially offer to an offense and that is fine and respectable but I simply disagree about him needing more chances. I think the coaching staff isn't giving him more because he isn't ready.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ladder27 View Post
            Your compairing Bradshaw to LeGarretteIpunchmyownteamatesintheface. The guy only has 2 years in the league as well so you can't compaire Bradshaw with that ****.
            I never compared those two? I brought up Blount because he was there before Martin...that's all.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Flip Empty View Post
              You asked for facts and I gave them...

              and after looking through the Giants' #1 picks' rookie seasons, Wilson still sticks out:

              Through the same period:
              Code:
              Prince Amukamara:
              7 games / 0 starts 1 interception 3 passes defended 12 tackles / 2 assists
              Jason Pierre-Paul:
              16 games / 0 starts 4.5 sacks 6 passes defended 2 forced fumbles 17 tackles/ 5 assists
              Hakeem Nicks:
              14 games / 6 starts 47 receptions 790 yards 6 touchdowns
              Kenny Phillips:
              16 games / 3 starts 1 interception 50 tackles / 7 assists
              Aaron Ross:
              15 games / 9 starts 1.5 sacks 3 interceptions / 1 touchdown 35 tackles / 7 assists
              Mathias Kiwanuka
              16 games / 9 starts 4 sacks 2 interceptions 2 forced fumbles 44 tackles / 9 assists
              Corey Webster:
              15 games / 2 starts 5 passes defended 2 forced fumbles 38 tackles / 1 assist
              Eli Manning:
              9 games / 7 starts 197 attempts 1043 yards 6 touchdowns
              Obviously there are still four games remaining so this could very well change, but as it stands, Wilson is the first #1 pick of this current group to be used so sparingly.



              It's not about being unhappy, it's just confusing. Why draft a guy if you aren't going to use him?

              My last post on this issue. Every player develops at a different pace. People seem to think that running back is the least difficult position on the team to transition to. However, the coaching staff has indicated that it's more than running the ball and further that David has more to learn. He is being tutored by Hynoski on making pre-snap reads and picking up blitzes.

              Historically, we draft players to develop them. It's not a new concept. It has been going on since 1979 when George Young became the first real GM in Giants' history. Fast forward to Jerry Reese and his now famous "I don't do sexy" referring to his draft and FA acquisitions. WE want our draft picks to start right away, that's just not an expectation the organization has. It's hard to argue that their philosophy sucks when it's been successful most of the time. We've come to call it "next man up" in recent times.

              Wilson's time to shine at RB will come, he's been entrusted with returning kicks (at which he excels) which for some reason people on here see as a second class citizen role. He's not in the dog house, he's not better than Bradshaw at this moment in time, and he is poised to have to take over the #1 role when and if Bradshaw's feet or neck flare up.
              “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

              Comment


              • I do not disagree with anyone who says that every athlete peaks at different times....I will not debate because this is true. What is frustrating is having the coaching staff blamed for why he is on the bench. I was annoyed with Wilson's interview a few weeks ago because he acts as if its the coaching staff keeping him back too. I dont want a rookie here who thinks they have done all they could to start....because I never heard Wilson mentioning the little things he could do better. Like stay with Eli after practice, or staying back to watch game film, or even being outspoken and competitive for the extra reps at practice. All I heard from him was that he does well with the reps he get. This rookie has alot to learn.
                " In Reese to Sign a Bust"

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                • Originally posted by TheEnigma View Post
                  He did have a nice game against the Bears in the preseason but I haven't really been too impressed with him outside of that. There has been a few carries where he has run into the back of our own linemen and that is an issue of vision.

                  We do need to utilize him more on PA passes though since when we did it once against the Redskins, the safeties bit on the run. Unfortunately, we weren't able to connect on the pass.
                  a positive is that he hasn't fumbled the ball while running into a lineman's rear lol

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Imgrate View Post
                    Nicks, jpp Ross kp all played significantly more snaps. All of them play a position that is harder to transition to the pros than rb...But, let's assume you are correct and we don't play rookies, then we should've drafted a player that plays a position worth investing in. guys like cordy Glenn, Andre branch, Kendall Reyes
                    Cordy Glenn....I was so hoping that we would draft him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by EliIsTheBaas View Post
                      Never liked the pick, especially with Cordy Glenn on the board, but don't be so quick to call him a bust. Though it hasn't been the season anyone envisioned when he was taken first round, look at CJ Spiller this year.
                      +1 on Cordy Glenn and +1 on the Spiller comparison. I prefer power runners instead of speed guys, anyway.

                      Give it time, folks. And it's not like Wilson hasn't contributed at all this year. He as been our KR this year and has done an excellent job at it.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ELI_HOF_NYG View Post
                        you should be less impressed with the coaching staffs use of wilson,,they are not playing to his strengths,,,,we need to use him like Philly uses shady,,,screen passes and more misdirection,,let him use his speed and elusiveness in the open field..this kid is not a hand it off up the middle guy, plain and simple. plus 4 carries? I dont care who is evaluating him, you can not evaluate on such a microscopic body of work. this kid will be tiki barber 2.0 when it is all said and done..I can feel it.
                        Indeed, i do concur, when you have a certain Skill set, you should utilize said skill set versus try to force a different one on him, and that is on the Coaches, Wilson didn't ask to be a Giant, they drafted him, they knew what kind of runner he is, they knew his skill set, it's wrong to force another on someone, and that is the Coaches fault,

                        if they can't come up with a couple plays to utilize his skill set, and in turn force 3 inside runs, and one toss a game, that is again on the coaches,

                        same thing is happening to Bush at Miami,

                        Bradshaw runs into his own line at least once a game, sometimes more,

                        does anyone, or has anyone actually played the Running Back position, and not in Backyard games, i mean highschool, college, pro style games?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JJC7301 View Post
                          +1 on Cordy Glenn and +1 on the Spiller comparison. I prefer power runners instead of speed guys, anyway. Give it time, folks. And it's not like Wilson hasn't contributed at all this year. He as been our KR this year and has done an excellent job at it.
                          The thing with Spiller is that Fred Jackson emerged and is a coaches favorite there. Gailey LOVES Jackson. If Spiller was able to tote it 20-25 times a game, he's quite possibly the most dangerous back in the league. Bills fans are in shock just how inept Gailey is with his use of Spiller, much like we are with Wilson to a lesser extent. Just wait until Wilson breaks another long TD like the one vs. Cleveland. We will all be up in arms when Bradshaw is getting the starts and bulk of the load even when he is running on makeshift parts below the calves. Coughlin from what I've gathered from him is a very firm believer in seniority, which is nice in the locker room but it also makes us susceptible to everything that ensues from a lack of timely adjustments. O'Hara in 2010 is a prime example. Our whole staff is guilty of it at times. Fewell didn't fine tune his defensive philosophy until players complained about it. It should never have to reach that point, coaching staffs get paid very handsomely to ensure that our team is always in an optimal system with the best combination of 11 on the field. An extreme example of this can be seen in San Diego, where Norv Turner plays Ronnie Brown on every third down and every passing situation. It's a key give away, but because Brown is one of Norv's favorite guys with his "desire to learn the intricacies of pass protection", he gets more snaps than a RB at his playing level should. Meanwhile, Ryan Mathews is an ultra talented back who is put in awful situations the majority of the time with insufficient time to get into a rhythm. Also, Cleveland. Richardson takes off on third down and Montario Hardesty/Chris Ogbannaya check in? Why? No clue. No one knows. Could be that Shurmur thinks they are better pass blockers, but considering they rarely block, it's a stretch. Richardson is ultra talented, and doesn't have his oppurtunities maximized. Same thing with Munchak in Tennessee. CJ2K might have the gaudiest averages in the league when he hits over 20 touches, and some of the ugliest when he is under 16 or so. You'd think he gets the touches, but he doesn't. It should also come as no surprise tha there's a good chance that at least 75% of these coaches are probably searching for a job next year. Luckily, we prosper in spite of some of these coaching mismanagements, but I still am hard pressed to call it the correct mold. I much more prefer Tomlin's way of doing things, and his teams are equally successful.
                          Last edited by gmen0820; 12-06-2012, 12:57 AM.
                          My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

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                          • I had that text split up, but it put it as a block anyway. I hate these ****ty new boards.


                            Edit: oh and how could I forget our boys Reid/Mornhinweg and their piss poor use of McCoy, or Crennel/Daboll and their piss poor use of Charles. All elite caliber backs completely with their balls being squeezed in the palms of their coaches.
                            Last edited by gmen0820; 12-06-2012, 12:59 AM.
                            My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

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                            • And just to conclude with my feelings on Wilson: I understand he is young and developing. I understand we run a complex offense under Gilbride. I understand that Coughlin is hard on rookies who make mistakes. But I can't, and will never understand why we trust a guy we signed 5 days or so before the game in Kregg Lumpkin to be in there on the first series vs the Redskins over our FIRST ROUND PICK who needs game experience. **** it, if you want to be so stubborn about it Coughlin, just keep Bradshaw in there. He is a monster in pass protection and an all around threat. Lumpkin? Are you ****ing kidding me?
                              My body was sculpted to the proportions of Michelangelo's David.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gmen0820 View Post
                                And just to conclude with my feelings on Wilson: I understand he is young and developing. I understand we run a complex offense under Gilbride. I understand that Coughlin is hard on rookies who make mistakes. But I can't, and will never understand why we trust a guy we signed 5 days or so before the game in Kregg Lumpkin to be in there on the first series vs the Redskins over our FIRST ROUND PICK who needs game experience. **** it, if you want to be so stubborn about it Coughlin, just keep Bradshaw in there. He is a monster in pass protection and an all around threat. Lumpkin? Are you ****ing kidding me?
                                lol i said the same thing to u last night. LUMPKIN WASNT EVEN BLOCKING HE WAS GOING OUT ON ROUTES LIKE DESIGNED ROUTES...lmfao and then the screen to him where if we connect on that, dude has NO ONE to beat except a guy thats being blocked...he ran towards eli when i gathered he was supposed to just step back from where he was at as thats how we usually do our screens. some teams do it more of a buble type and have the target trak back to the qb/ball but it was obvious eli/lumpkin werent on the same page...that disgusted me bc wilson is the kinda guy where he just needs one friggin play to break one for a td. it can be at any moment. which is why i dont get why we use him FOUR TIMES A GAME IF THAT when we NEED to alleviate all the pressure on the pass game to move the ball and score

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