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News, notes, rumors, and gossip: Sunday, December 30, 2012 GAME DAY

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  • News, notes, rumors, and gossip: Sunday, December 30, 2012 GAME DAY



    Frustrated Justin Tuck Can't Explain His Or Giants' Woes This Season

    Excerpt: "He has been a captain, the face of the defense and a legitimate choice for Super Bowl MVP, were it not for Eli Manning.

    But with the Giants’ season perhaps ending today, Justin Tuck is representative of his team in a different way: He is out of answers.

    On his way out of the team’s practice facility Friday, the veteran defensive end was sure of just one thing, in response to the question that’s become even more pertinent in recent weeks: Is he frustrated?

    "What do you think?" Tuck said.

    That was his way of saying yes. But he hasn’t been able to crack the more substantive issues surrounding the 8-7 Giants, who can only reach the playoffs if they beat the Eagles today and three other NFC games fall into place: Why did they fall victim to another second-half slide? How did the defense go from Super Bowl-caliber to third-worst in the league?

    The personal questions, such as why he hasn’t been the same Tuck who starred in two Super Bowls, have been equally as difficult for him.

    "Right now, to be honest, you’re wasting your time asking me the questions, because I don’t know," Tuck said, climbing into his SUV on his way to pick up his 2-year-old son, Jayce. "I really don’t. I haven’t had time to be away from football and see what that difference is. But obviously, it’s visible that it’s a difference. I don’t know what it is right now. I’m trying to figure out that deep answer just like you are."

    The guy who has been a tone-setter for the Giants is this year a metaphor for the team’s struggles.

    He hasn’t been able to find the same switch he turned on late last year, when he recorded 6.5 of his 8.5 sacks after the first of December, one of the finest examples of coach Tom Coughlin’s "finish" motto. He sounds weary of searching for answers, and after two straight losses took the Giants’ playoffs destiny out of their own hands, he also sounds resigned to the fact that it may be too late for the answers to come this season.

    "Ask me when we come to training camp next year," Tuck said. "I’ll have all the answers to all the questions you ask then." Read more...

    Giants' Gameday: Eagles (4-11) At Giants ( 8-7)

    Excerpt: "3 matchups to watch

    1. Michael Vick vs. Giants defense

    The Giants have faced their fair share of mobile quarterbacks this season and each time the inevitable benchmark and reference point — whether for Robert Griffin III, Cam Newton or Aaron Rodgers — was Michael Vick. The Giants dealt with Vick himself in a Week 4 Eagles victory, but it looked like they wouldn’t see him again this season and possibly ever again in an Eagles uniform. Vick was demoted to the team’s No. 3 quarterback. Rookie starter Nick Foles then broke a hand last week against the Redskins, so Vick will start Sunday in what could be his and coach Andy Reid’s final game for the Eagles. Vick originally lost his starting job when he sustained a concussion in Week 10. He was cleared to play last Sunday, but was inactive. He was having a turnover-plagued season before his injury (19 turnovers in nine games). It’ll be interesting to see what he’ll do against a Giants defense that has been torched for 927 yards and 67 points over the last two weeks.

    2. Giants wide receivers vs. Eagles secondary

    Three receptions for 21 yards. That was the combined total for wide receivers Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks in the Giants’ blowout loss to the Ravens last week — and it all came from Cruz. Nicks, battling through a knee sprain for the tenth straight game, was targeted three times but was held without a catch for the first time in his four-year career. The rest of the receiving corps didn’t exactly pick up the slack, combining for five receptions for 86 yards. Of those, 43 came on Rueben Randle’s lone reception. The Giants wide receivers will go up against a secondary led by the underachieving cornerback duo of Nnamdi Asomugha and Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. The Eagles have surrendered 217.2 passing yards per game, which ranks 11th in the NFL. The Giants were without Nicks in the first meeting, but Cruz (nine receptions for 109 yards and a touchdown) and Domenik Hixon (six receptions for 114 yards) stepped up in the Giants’ 19-17 loss." Read more...

    Giants Know From Experience It's Do-Or-Die In Week 17

    Excerpt: "Tom Coughlin devised his "Build the Bridge" team slogan for 2012 very mindful of the reality that has dashed his Giants’ spirits the past few weeks: It’s not easy to repeat.

    Gray T-shirts imprinted with the motto were issued to the team back in August, when the good vibes from Super Bowl XLVI were still fresh.

    "Having great respect for our players and the way that they finished the season, and wanting to take those values and move them forward, knowing full well that it’s 16 games," the Giants coach said. "That’s a long season. That’s a long period of time that you’re asking for that. But nevertheless, a goal is a goal. That’s what we based it on."

    That goal took a major hit with the Giants’ past two losses. They now face elimination Sunday, needing a win against the Eagles, plus a Bears loss at the Lions, a Vikings loss to the Packers and a Cowboys loss or tie to the Redskins.

    There have only been eight repeat champions in the Super Bowl’s 46-year history, and just one in the past decade, the Patriots. The past six Super Bowl champions have all failed either to make the playoffs or win a playoff game the following season — including the 2008 Giants, who stumbled after Plaxico Burress’ self-shooting and lost to the Eagles after an opening-round playoffs bye.

    The 8-7 Giants’ scenario to still make the postseason isn’t a ridiculous one, but even Coughlin called their hopes "remote" after the Baltimore loss. Destiny had been in their own hands up until last week, and receiver Victor Cruz admitted the Giants may have succumbed to their own pressure.

    "Whether we even knew it or not, I think there was some pressure, obviously, going into the last four games where we had to win and we had to keep doing the things we had to do with everybody looking back at last year," Cruz said. "All that pressure is kind of gone, and we just want to go out and play football and finish the year right if it’s going to be our last one." Read more...



    Myers: Gag Is On Cough-lin For Giant Collapse

    Excerpt: "Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning were the best coach-quarterback combination in the NFL coming into the 2012 season. They had won two Super Bowls together the previous five years, twice beating Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, who have been the gold standard of this century.

    The Giants are now a desperate team as they close out the season Sunday against the Eagles, needing a victory over Philly and losses by the Bears and Vikings and a loss or tie by the Cowboys, simply to sneak in as a wild-card.

    How unbecoming for a Super Bowl champion.

    Coughlin and Manning have done bad jobs the last two months as the Giants have stumbled through a 2-5 second half after they were 6-2 in the first half and had been emerging as the best team in the league.

    GM Jerry Reese will reload in the offseason and improve the personnel and the presence of Coughlin and Manning means the Giants will be strong at the two most important spots on any team.

    But there is no evading the issue: Neither has distinguished themselves this season.

    Last season, as Eli was becoming Elite, he had eight games over 300 yards with three of those over 400 yards. He finished with 4,933 yards passing - the sixth highest total in NFL history. He had 29 touchdowns and 16 interceptions. Compare that with his 2012 stats: He has only three games over 300 yards. One of them came in the second week when he threw a party against the Bucs secondary with 510 yards passing, tied for ninth most in NFL history.

    But he has now gone eight straight games without throwing for 300 yards. The last time he hit the magic number was in the 27-23 victory over the Redskins on Oct. 21 and he got there only after teaming with Victor Cruz on the 77-yard game-winning touchdown pass with 1:13 left.

    In the last eight games, Manning's longest touchdown pass has been only 25 yards to Hakeem Nicks three weeks ago against the Saints. The absence of big plays by Manning, along with the absence of a pass rush by Jason Pierre-Paul, Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora, the two big-ticket items that won the Giants the Super Bowl last season, are at the heart of their problems.

    Coughlin, who at 66 is the oldest coach in the NFL, earned the right to decide when he wants to retire as a result of his second Super Bowl title. But that doesn't cover up the biggest imperfection in his Giants coaching resume: His teams invariably fall apart in the second half of the season.

    Last year, the Giants quickly ruined their typical 6-2 start by losing four in a row. But when they were faced with must-wins against the Jets and Cowboys in the final two games, they responded with huge victories and built momentum which carried them through a Super Bowl run.

    This year, they have fallen apart later in the season, giving them no time to recover. The last two weeks against the Falcons and Ravens are about as bad as it gets. They lost 34-0 in Atlanta and 33-14 in Baltimore and what makes it even more perplexing for Coughlin is those games were immediately preceded by the 52-27 victory over New Orleans.

    In a span of two weeks, the Giants went from controlling their own destiny in the NFC East to controlling their own destiny in the wild-card race to controlling their tee times next week at some beautiful resort country club if everything doesn't break right for them Sunday." Read more...

    Giants' Bennett Martells-Us He Wants To Return

    Excerpt: "Martellus Bennett
    has thoroughly enjoyed his year in New York, which is why he’s hoping he’s not about to play in his Giants finale. He’s happy here, he said. He’s thrived in the Giants’ offense.

    He’s also convinced that nobody’s seen anything close to his best, yet.

    “As a player, I’m still growing up,” Bennett said last week. “I haven’t hit a plateau or anything like that. … To get another season in this offense, I think I can be twice as good as I was this year.”

    That’s a lofty goal for the 25-year-old considering this was, by far, his finest year in the NFL. Heading into the Giants’ regular-season finale against the Eagles on Sunday afternoon, the tight end has 54 catches so far for 611 yards and five touchdowns in his first season as a full-time starter. That’s almost as many catches (65) and more yards (563) and touchdowns (0) than he had in his last three seasons with the Dallas Cowboys combined.

    Bennett has more than justified the one-year, $2.5 million contract the Giants gave him last March. And while he said there have been no talks about an extension, he admitted he’s willing to take less than market value if the Giants want to sign him long term. He believes he’s answered any lingering questions they may have had about him as a player.

    He hopes he answered some questions about who he is as a person, too." Read more...

    The Playbook: Eagles (4-11) vs. Giants (8-7)

    Excerpt: "EAGLES at GIANTS


    1 p.m. LINE: Giants by 7½

    TV: Ch. 5 (Thom Brennaman, Brian Billick)

    RADIO: WFAN-660 AM and 101.9 FM (Bob Papa, Carl Banks). Nationwide on Compass Media (Chris Carino, Brian Baldinger).

    FORECAST: Partly sunny and windy, mid 30s.

    KEY MATCHUP: WR Jeremy Maclin vs. CB Corey Webster

    The once-solid Webster has become a weak link in the secondary with his inability to make plays when the ball is in the air. The Ravens targeted him repeatedly last week and he is going to have to hold up in this one. Maclin has 21 catches in the last three games and his speed sets him up well on double moves. The Giants are going to have to give Webster some safety help over the top." Read more...

    Sunday Mat Be Tuck's Last Speech

    Excerpt: "Something different always happens when Justin Tuck stands at the center of the Giants’ pregame huddle.
    It’s Giants tradition, this massive, emotional mosh pit in the end zone, just before the action gets started. The players gather around, and one of the team’s leaders takes over. Sometimes, Ahmad Bradshaw curses furiously. Other times, loudmouthed safety Antrel Rolle blathers on.

    But when Tuck’s Alabama drawl commands the huddle, things are different. The Giants defensive captain says he’s never planned a speech, preferring to just “speak from the heart.” But it worked back on Feb. 5, when he spurred the Giants to the Lombardi Trophy. It works all the time, really.

    “If Justin Tuck’s talking, everybody’s listening to him,” linebacker Spencer Paysinger says. “Everybody’s internalizing his speech.”

    This Sunday afternoon, as the Giants get amped to face the Philadelphia Eagles in the finale of this regular season completely gone wrong, the Giants may internalize a Tuck speech for the last time.

    The longtime leader of the Giants defense very well may leap into the middle of the final pregame mosh pit of his Giants career. An injury-ravaged Tuck has struggled to rush the passer this season, making just three sacks, his lowest total since 2006. And to a franchise that must fill serious defensive holes — and unsentimental GM Jerry Reese — Tuck may not be worth the $4.5 million that he’s due in 2013, the final year of his contract.

    After eight years as a Giant, after playing a key role in two Super Bowl championship runs, Tuck could find himself cut after this nightmare season is over. And he knows it. A few years ago, he routinely scared opposing offenses; this year, his value has largely been tied to his ability to inspire his own defense.

    “It could be (my last speech),” he says, sounding like a grizzled vet ready for the end. “I don’t allow myself to think about it. When it happens — and it will happen one day — I will move on.” Read more...











    GIANTS 101

    Giants vs. Eagles: Week 17 Game Preview

    Excerpt: "The New York Giants will take on the Philadelphia Eagles on Sunday atMetLife Stadium. We can sit here and go through all the key matchups and talk about what Big Blue needs to accomplish in order to win the game; however, it doesn't really matter unless the Chicago Bears, Minnesota Vikings and Dallas Cowboys each lose their respective contests. It's not inconceivable that the Giants make the playoffs, as each of those teams have tough Week 17 opponents, but a lot will have to break the Giants way in order to continue their season into next weekend.

    Even if this team squeaks into the postseason, the last two weeks have shown us that this particular group of players is incapable of playing with the consistency it takes to win in the playoffs. Eli Manning has not played to the heights we saw from him last season, the defensive line has not been able to get to the quarterback and the secondary is riddled with injuries. This is an experienced group of players that are capable of playing much better than we've seen as of late, but they have come up short this season in crucial moments.

    Looking past the Giants pipedream playoff hopes, this team needs to win tomorrow to carry some positive energy into the offseason. Coming out at home against a division rival should be enough motivation for Big Blue to come out and compete to the best of their ability tomorrow. Michael Vick and the Philadelphia Eagles have had a disastrous season, and the Giants should be determined to stick it to them on their home field tomorrow.

    In fact, the Giants have no beaten the Eagles at home since September 30th, 2007. It's been a long time since Eli Manning and CO. have defended their home field against Philadelphia and tomorrow seems like a incredible opportunity to break that streak. Let's take a look at what Big Blue needs to accomplish in order to emerge victorious in Week 17 and maybe even make the playoffs.


    Play With Pride

    The performances of the last two weeks have been some of the most pathetic football games in New York Giants history. Besides the fact that they all but removed this team from playoff contention, Big Blue came out lifeless in their two biggest games of the season. Losing a football game is one thing, but losing with the mental breakdowns, the lack of leadership and lack of emotion that this team portrayed is completely unacceptable from any professional sports franchise.

    The New York Football Giants are a proud organization that prides themselves on hard work, dedication, character and maximum effort. We have not seen any of those attributes over the last two games.

    It's crucial that the Giants come out with some fire tomorrow. If not for the fans, or their Super Bowl aspirations, or even to keep their jobs in 2012, this team needs to play for each other tomorrow. The harsh reality is that no matter the outcome of this football game, the season most likely ends on Sunday. However, tomorrow is an opportunity for the players on this roster to show that while most have given up on them, that they truly and genuinely care about the guy sitting next to them each and every day throughout the season.

    The catatrophic failures of 2012 will not go away any time soon, but we will learn a lot about the character of this team the the bond that these players share by the way they come out and perform tomorrow at 1pm.

    Force Vick To Throw the Football

    Michael Vick has not played football in six weeks. He hasn't dressed in two games. Tomorrow is Vick's opportunity to show future prospective teams that he can still play effectively in this league. However, it's incredibly difficult to miss six consecutive football games and come back without missing a beat. Vick is going to have to find timing between himself and his receivers, as well as regain the ability to know where each and every one of his receivers will be when he has to scramble outside the pocket.

    The more Vick puts the ball in the air, the better chance the Giants have of winning this game. If Big Blue can take an early lead and contain LeSean McCoy, Michael Vick could be in for a long day.

    Containing Vick is going to be an issue for the Giants. Even through his shortcomings in 2012, Vick is still a versatile athlete capable of wreaking havoc on a defense with his mobility. The Giants defensive ends are going to have to play with outside leverage and stay patient.

    Their will be opportunities to get sacks, but they can't risk exposing the secondary by letting Vick out of the pocket and giving him a long time to throw the football. Bringing five and even six man blitzes could force the ball from Vick's hands quickly and make him rely on the timing between him and his receivers to move the football." Read more...

    Injuries, And How They're Handled, Have Changed The Game Of Football

    Excerpt: "Old school New YorkFootball Giants can tell you stories of playing injured. No, seriously playing injured. Flashbacks of tight end Mark Bavaro playing with a wired jaw and linebacker Lawrence Taylor playing with his shoulder in a harness are just two of the prolific blue players that come to mind.

    Times are different. While some do continue to play through their injuries, most don’t. Contracts and long-run availability are two of the leading possible reasons why guys are listed more as out and doubtful than questionable and probable. Sure, the injuries are a bit more complicated, but isn’t medicine more, umm, modern?

    As for the Giants that have been playing on and off while hurt, quite a few of them have second opinions/consultations to visit and impending surgeries to book. Players that are starters will approach their decisions with caution as any long-term rehabilitation prescriptions could affect not only current as well as future contracts, but actual playing time. The “It’s a Business” aspect of football doesn’t dissipate because a team likes a player. Winning cannot wait. The Giants do, however, take a less cutthroat attitude with their men in blue. It won’t all be pretty, though." Read more...



    Spotlight On...Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora

    Excerpt: "If there's been one question during this entire 2012 New York Giants' season it's been this: What is the deal with Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora? Both are two-time Super Bowl champions with the Giants, have both been dominant defensive ends in the NFL, and suddenly they're playing well below par.

    Umenyiora is 31 and Tuck is 29. Do these guys no longer have the heart and passion for the game, or are they simply on a decline? The game of football can put such a strain on an individual, both physically and mentally, especially in the NFL where hits become bigger and louder.

    Tuck has battled shoulder and neck injuries for a while. They've contributed to him not playing up to his previous level the past two seasons, and seem to be taking a toll on his mental game. It's clear that Tuck isn't the same player who had 11.5 sacks in 2010. Where is that spark? Where is that passion?

    Tuck missed a few weeks of the 2011 season with neck and shoulder injuries and mentioned he was going through personal struggles that were effecting his play. When he returned he looked like the Tuck of old, making big plays and being the vocal leader he's supposed to be, leading the team to Super Bowl XLVI glory. This season he has struggled again with his shoulder injury, but this time has not come back from it. Is it his injuries, a lack of passion, or both? Defensive coordinator Perry Fewell believes that Tuck is working as hard as he usually does, but just isn't getting the results.

    "Is he as effective as he was at the end of last year right now? No," said Fewell. "I watch him every day. Some days he surprises me with what he does and some days it's Justin. I think Justin is trying to play hard, but he's not making any plays. Just like our guys haven't made any plays in the last couple of weeks." Read more...

    Perry Fewell Back To Buffalo? As Head Coach? Really?

    Excerpt: "There are New York Giants' fans who would like to run defensive coordinator Perry Fewell out of town as fast as possible. With the underwhelming Giants' defense ranked 30th in the league in yards allowed this season and largely responsible for the Giants likely being shut out of the playoffs speculation about Fewell's future with the Giants has begun.
    Could the Buffalo Bills actually take Fewell off the Giants' hands? And make him their head coach? Current Buffalo head coach Chan Gailey could be one of the coaches to hit the unemployment line on Black Monday, the day after the 2012 NFL regular season ends.Could Fewell be in line to become the Bills' next head coach? Alex Marvez of FOX Sports lists Fewell among the assistant coaches most likely to be elevated to a head-coaching job this off-season, and pegs Buffalo as a potential suitor.Remember, Fewell was defensive coordinator for the Bills for four seasons and went 3-4 as their interim head coach at the end of the 2009 season. The Bills chose to bring in Gailey after that season rather than turn the reigns over to Fewell.Marvez thinks that the Bills might reverse themselves and try to undo that mistake:With Chan Gailey having posted a 15-32 record the past three seasons, the Bills may have made the wrong decision when not promoting Fewell from his interim post. With hat in hand, one of Buffalo’s first calls for a replacement should go to Fewell if Gailey is ousted." Read more...















    Victor Cruz Upbeat On New York Giants Contract Talks

    Excerpt: "Victor Cruz seems pretty calm about his contract situation. The New York Giants wide receiver will be a restricted free agent when the season ends and he's eager to sign a contract extension.

    Cruz said it's all good, though."No, I'm not disappointed," Cruz told the New York Daily News. "I think we're still moving in the right direction. You know, it's a negotiation and everything's not going to happen the way you want it to. We're just going back and forth, and hopefully we get things squared away soon."Cruz has 82 receptions for 1,040 yards and nine touchdowns heading into the team's regular-season finale againstthe Philadelphia Eagles on Sunday. He caught 82 balls for 1,536 yards and nine touchdowns during his sophomore season in 2011. His contract paid $540,000 this year -- and Cruz was voted to the Pro Bowl." Read more...





    Five Reasons To Be Optimistic

    Excerpt: "The Giants are playing for their playoff lives Sunday against the Eagles. Here are five reasons to be optimistic about their chances:

    Returnees: Yes, the Giants are banged up -- but three key players returned to practice Thursday, after sitting out Wednesday: running back Ahmad Bradshaw, wide receiverHakeem Nicks and guard Chris Snee. And two more returned Friday: cornerback Prince Amukamara and center David Baas. Those five aren't anywhere close to 100 percent, but the fact that they're still willing to try should inspire the rest of the team. And they can still help on the field, too.

    Eli: Eli Manning has not had a good season, but he's still one of the most clutch players in the league -- don't forget all those fourth-quarter comebacks last season. The Giants certainly have their backs against the wall now. There's reason to believe Manning will come through in Week 17.

    Special teams: The offense and defense have sputtered in recent weeks, but the Giants have been pretty strong on special teams. They lead the NFL in kickoff return yards (1,619), thanks to rookie running back David Wilson. Kicker Lawrence Tynes leads the NFL in field goals (33), although he has missed some short ones in recent weeks. And punter Steve Weatherford is eighth in the league, averaging 47.5 yards per kick." Read more...

    Five Reasond To Be Pessimistic

    Excerpt: "The Giants are playing for their playoff lives Sunday against the Eagles. Here are five reasons to be pessimistic about their chances:

    Injuries: Only two players missed practice entirely Friday, but several key Giants are playing at a very diminished capacity -- particularly wide receiver Hakeem Nicks. Also, cornerbacks Prince Amukamara and Jayron Hosley are both doubtful for Sunday's game, which means Justin Tryon may have to start opposite Corey Webster -- yikes. The Giants have been giving up big passing plays all year long, even when their top cornerbacks are healthy.

    Vick: The Giants probably would have preferred to see Nick Foles at quarterback for the Eagles, but he broke his throwing hand last week. Instead Michael Vick will play, for the first time since Nov. 11. He's been a turnover machine this season, but Vick is 3-1 against the Giants as an Eagle, and is likely auditioning for a new contract with a new team. He'll be highly motivated.

    Offense/defense: The Giants have been pretty good on special teams this year. But they've been far from special on both offense and defense. They are 14th in the league in total offense -- mediocre -- with 5,290 yards. And they're 30th in the league in total defense -- awful -- having given up 5,817 yards. And they've been outscored 67-14 in the past two weeks. Not good. " Red more...

















    Last edited by RoanokeFan; 12-29-2012, 10:31 PM.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

  • #2
    Thanks Roanoke! Been a tough year!


    • #3
      thanks Ro...

      have fun today
      "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
      You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch


      • #4
        Thanks RF! Bundle up good!!
        What an empty feeling today. Bittersweet does not do it justice. Sure hope they find the answer in the off-season. This swoon has got to stop.


        • #5
          thanks Roanoke!

          the G-Men need help but they can do it! they did last year why not again?


          • #6
            Thanks bro.

            “Basically just stay with your man,” cornerback Janoris Jenkins said. “Follow him everywhere you go. Even if he goes to the bathroom, follow him.”


            • #7



              • #8
                Originally posted by Captain Chaos View Post
                Thanks Roanoke! Been a tough year!
                I has and having been at this game, I believe we are not that far away from contending as I thought before the game. We need to cut and paste a bit, but we have a solid core to take into next season.
                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GameTime View Post
                  thanks Ro...

                  have fun today
                  I wish you had been there. It was an exciting game and the fans were really into it.
                  “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cindy in INdy View Post
                    Take heart, we will come back stronger next season.
                    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Old Giant View Post
                      Thanks RF! Bundle up good!!
                      What an empty feeling today. Bittersweet does not do it justice. Sure hope they find the answer in the off-season. This swoon has got to stop.
                      It was ****ing COLD but it was a great game to be at
                      “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1