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  • #31
    Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
    Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
    Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

    Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
    Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.
    I trust Reese more than I trust you (or the OP or anyone on these boards) in matters of the Giants personnel. In any case, the point of "trust" is moot since I (we) have no choice in the matter. Short of being able to override his decisions, you're kind of stuck with them.

    The fact that you know very little (we all do) about how the situation will play out makes you Chicken Little staring at the sky and shivering like a little Mexican dog.

    I tend to have more poise than that.
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      Osi's contract was far from brilliant. They front loaded that deal giving Osi the power near the end of the deal to whine his way to more money. Renegotiating Osi this season was a mistake. He was the invisible man as he often is. At least we don't have to deal with that guy anymore. Let him go to NE where they won't give him near what he thinks he's worth. The reality is that Osi got the best of our FO.
      The Tuck deal was far too many years for a guy who had injury problems as far back as his years at ND. Love the guy, but he simply wasn't worth the money we gave him.
      This is why I don't sweat Reese's moves:

      The Redskins had one of the worst cap situations in the league a couple of years ago. At the time, they had *THE* worst contract signing (Haynesworth) which led to a ton of dead money. They tried to dump it all in 2010 (the capless year) and got nailed, and were hit with what amounted to a  cap hit for 2012 and 2013.

      They just won the division and look to be a power for at least the next five years.

      I consider Reese and the Maras to be a crap ton smarter than Snyder and Allen.
      Last edited by Kruunch; 01-03-2013, 09:40 AM.
      I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
        I trust Reese more than I trust you (or the OP or anyone on these boards) in matters of the Giants personnel. In any case, the point of "trust" is moot since I (we) have no choice in the matter. Short of being able to override his decisions, you're kind of stuck with them.

        The fact that you know very little (we all do) about how the situation will play out makes you Chicken Little staring at the sky and shivering like a little Mexican dog.

        I tend to have more poise than that.
        Well that's just completely stupid. I'm not suggesting that I know more than JR. But this is a football message board so we express our opinions and discuss, among other things, the decisions our FO makes regarding our football team.

        If we use your logic, no discussion, except blatant cheerleading, would ever take place regarding our GM or FO.
        Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
          Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
          Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

          Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
          Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.
          A lot of the players that played like stop gaps or were hurt are free agents the next couple years anyone. We won't need to cut anyone and take a cap hit. And with all those guys playing hurt or like doo doo, we were still one play away from the playoffs.

          Eli is in his prime. That essentially puts your team in "win now" mode. If there is a time to restructure and eat a bigger cap number later, now is the time. And technically, we've already won big - with 2SBs. The draft this year is going to be huge. Absolutely huge.
          http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
          http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
          http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

          Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Well that's just completely stupid. I'm not suggesting that I know more than JR. But this is a football message board so we express our opinions and discuss, among other things, the decisions our FO makes regarding our football team.

            If we use your logic, no discussion, except blatant cheerleading, would ever take place regarding our GM or FO.
            I tend to look for (and inject) intelligent conversation.

            But hey, I can post "CUT ELI!" threads too.
            I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              Osi's contract was far from brilliant. They front loaded that deal giving Osi the power near the end of the deal to whine his way to more money. Renegotiating Osi this season was a mistake. He was the invisible man as he often is. At least we don't have to deal with that guy anymore. Let him go to NE where they won't give him near what he thinks he's worth. The reality is that Osi got the best of our FO.
              The Tuck deal was far too many years for a guy who had injury problems as far back as his years at ND. Love the guy, but he simply wasn't worth the money we gave him.
              When they extended Osi earlier in the season, wasn't it the right move to make the 2nd year voidable? And wasn't that due to Osi's decline?

              Would we be complaing about Tuck's contract if he had 14 sacks this season?
              “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
                When they extended Osi earlier in the season, wasn't it the right move to make the 2nd year voidable? And wasn't that due to Osi's decline?

                Would we be complaing about Tuck's contract if he had 14 sacks this season?
                If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
                I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

                And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
                That's just my opinion.

                Well I looked it up RF, it seems that I was right that 2012 was the last year in his old deal. He got a new deal for around $6MM with was $2.25M more than he would have earned. While it was technically an extension, it really wasn't since the second year was easily viodable. So essentially, they gave his a raise of $2.25MM in order to keep him from whining.
                I don't like that kind of deal.
                Last edited by Morehead State; 01-03-2013, 09:58 AM.
                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                  If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
                  I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

                  And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
                  That's just my opinion.

                  All I'm saying is when you sign a contract for, say, 4 years you can't know with any certainty how that player is going to be playing in the last year of the contract. It seems to me contracts are signed based on whatever body of work there is BEFORE the contract is entered into.

                  Victor Cruz is an example. He's had back to back 1,000 yard seasons NOW, before his contract is to be negotiated. I'm going to guess his play in 2014 is not going to be an issue during the negotiations. If there were some past issue, let's say his dropped passes, that was a concern, they might include an incentive clause about dropped balls. "If yo have no dropped balls in any season, $500,000.00."

                  But other than that, how do you forecast where that player is going to be at any point through the terms of the contract?
                  “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                    If memory serves me I thought that this was the last year of his contract. They bumped from around $3MM to over $5MM. Again, I'll have to look it up but that's the way I remember it.
                    I thought they should have just made him play out his deal or get cut. I do admit that when it comes to Osi, I have very little tolerance.

                    And as far as Tuck goes, no none loves him more than me (well there's Mrs. Tuck I guess). But I love the guy. But that was a huge contract for a guy with one healthy season. And the Webby deal was for a guy who had a couple good playoff games. Again, I like Webby a lot, but it seemed an overreaction to the euphoria of our SB win.
                    That's just my opinion.

                    Well I looked it up RF, it seems that I was right that 2012 was the last year in his old deal. He got a new deal for around $6MM with was $2.25M more than he would have earned. While it was technically an extension, it really wasn't since the second year was easily viodable. So essentially, they gave his a raise of $2.25MM in order to keep him from whining.
                    I don't like that kind of deal.
                    Personally, I wish they had released Osi last year, but I don't get to make that call.

                    You didn't have to look for the stats, I would believe whatever you said.
                    Last edited by RoanokeFan; 01-03-2013, 10:04 AM.
                    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                      Well your blind trust in JR or anyone is novel, but a tad naive in my view.
                      Yes JR does his best but the reality is that we have a huge cap number this season due in part to our constant policy of restructuring huge contracts. An example is Eli's contract. We restructured his contract last season to reduce his cap number in 2012 to around $9MM. We did that to make room for guys like Bennett and other FA's, Well the consequence of that is his cap hit for the next 2 years is over $20MM.

                      Our GM is fallible just like anyone else. As I said, i don't know what their plan is this coming year. I'm sure the Webby cap hit last year and this coming year is a source of great regret. (Again..JR is fallible) I know they are doing what they believe they need to, but that doesn't make it right.
                      Its not unreasonable to question some of these moves and wonder aloud on the New York Giants MB whether or not some of these decisions will hurt our chances down the road.
                      Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

                      For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

                      I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

                      And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

                      Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







                      * I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on.
                      Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Delicreep View Post
                        Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

                        For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

                        I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

                        And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

                        Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







                        * I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on
                        .
                        n

                        Can I get a multiple use discount?
                        “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Delicreep View Post
                          Can you let me know what option I have other than blind trust?

                          For that matter, what option do the fans of the Raiders have other than blind trust?

                          I am not going to pretend that I have even a basic understanding of caponomics*, the effect of much of the restructuring, the available options other than restructuring and the effect of cutting people outright.

                          And even if I did have a mastery of the subject, I am here on a couch with no authority other than to make this post.

                          Here's what I do know...the guys running the show for the Giants are the most successful group in the last decade.







                          * I want a nickle every time that word is used from now on.
                          We're just talking about for the purposes of discussion.
                          My point is that we should be able to discuss our agreement or disagreement with anything the FO does without some poster saying that "JR knows more than you" as some kind of blanket retort to end the discussion.
                          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
                            Are you saying Reese is alone in this? No other teams face these problems? We don't wan them to spend the CAP to be able to contend?
                            I want Reese to spend the cap, but I want him to spend it on players that will actually have a positive impact on our team. Diehl, despite his declining ability over the last two years, is going to incur a cap hike from a manageable 4.5M in 2012 to 7.5M in 2013. Tuck, despite doing jack this year, is going to be a 5.6M hit. Baas is 6.7M. And that's not even bringing up Rolle, Canty, etc. that are valuable players to us but still are major cap hits.

                            The big problem I'm seeing now is that most of the good players are free agents (Eli, JPP, and Nicks are the only critical players we have that are still under contract), and most of the underperformers are signed through the year already... We're not going to be able to sign all of Cruz, the Browns, Marty, and KP, which are the 5 high-priority Giants FA. We'd be lucky to get 3 of them. Because we got screwed over by all this restructuring...

                            I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite team in the NFL.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Toadofsteel View Post
                              I want Reese to spend the cap, but I want him to spend it on players that will actually have a positive impact on our team. Diehl, despite his declining ability over the last two years, is going to incur a cap hike from a manageable 4.5M in 2012 to 7.5M in 2013. Tuck, despite doing jack this year, is going to be a 5.6M hit. Baas is 6.7M. And that's not even bringing up Rolle, Canty, etc. that are valuable players to us but still are major cap hits.

                              The big problem I'm seeing now is that most of the good players are free agents (Eli, JPP, and Nicks are the only critical players we have that are still under contract), and most of the underperformers are signed through the year already... We're not going to be able to sign all of Cruz, the Browns, Marty, and KP, which are the 5 high-priority Giants FA. We'd be lucky to get 3 of them. Because we got screwed over by all this restructuring...
                              technically, i think we're screwed by free agent signings from outside the organization. i don't know how many of the players you've mentioned we actually restructured, or was this just how their deals were originally drawn up.

                              we've invested $18 million a season (in 2013 cap dollars) between Rolle and Canty. and i think we have some dead money from restructuring rocky too.

                              any restructuring was what Reese was doing because of these FA signings that while they've been productive for us, haven't been good bang for our buck at all.


                              the Webby thing is also really screwing us. Webby Rolle and Canty = $27 million in cap $. That makes me sick. Sick.
                              sigpic

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kruunch View Post
                                Sure they are ... we didn't re-sign or restructure Smith or Boss and we did restructure Diehl.
                                but that is exactly the point Krunch , we were already in such bad cap shape that we then could not afford to re-sign them. we also were forced to play guys we would normally not play because we could not afford to upgrade in FA.

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