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NY Giants' Positional Review: Quarterback

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
    Its not "empirical" evidence, since what is a "pressure" is a matter of opinion. Plus what kinds of offensive play ans scheme can also effect the number of pressures.
    Its only empirical if:
    1. There is no dispute about what a real "pressure" is.
    2. If each QB plays in the exact same offense with the same types of pass plays.
    Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, MS.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Drez View Post
      Who ever made the claim that it hadn't?

      I'm just saying you can't look at sack numbers as the sole indicator of how much pressure a QB faces.

      And to answer your qualifications questions, I trust that PFF has a reasonable standard to which it adheres, and regardless of whether or not the stats may be a little off, they are close enough to truth where one can see that Eli was the most pressured QB in 2011, or if nothing else in the top 3.
      Yes but within the context of our offense with the same QB, you can conclude that with a better running attack and fewer sacks, our O line performed better in 2012 than in 2011.
      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
        Its not "empirical" evidence, since what is a "pressure" is a matter of opinion. Plus what kinds of offensive play ans scheme can also effect the number of pressures.
        Its only empirical if:
        1. There is no dispute about what a real "pressure" is.
        2. If each QB plays in the exact same offense with the same types of pass plays.
        there is a set definiton of pressure that the nfl uses, or at least in my posts examples the articles i've read, that is applied to each qb the same way fairly. that most def is empirical evidence. and whats ur point about the 5 step drops vs 3 step drops? that 3 step drop qbs will face less pressure? yeah so what. that suddenly changes the numbers when its acknowledgged? no. not at all.

        football is a game a of a million different situations that are never identical really. if ur looking for some sort of formula that covers/blankets any situation that can happen (diff. scheme, number of step drop back, coverage, schedule, defense faced, etc etc etc) u aint gonna find it. no stat can encompass every possible outcomes reason. all u can do is go snap by snap and record the data, and do it the same for every team. when thats done, eli is pressured among the most in the nfl. i posted an article recently actually about this, i was surprised to learn that brees was right up there with eli in terms of performance under pressure.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Drez View Post
          Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, MS.
          You mean like the fact that our offense calls for far more 7 step drop backs and have patterns that tend to take longer to develop than most other teams?

          You mean those kinds of facts?
          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Drez View Post
            Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinions, MS.
            ;p lol

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
              there is a set definiton of pressure that the nfl uses, or at least in my posts examples the articles i've read, that is applied to each qb the same way fairly. that most def is empirical evidence. and whats ur point about the 5 step drops vs 3 step drops? that 3 step drop qbs will face less pressure? yeah so what. that suddenly changes the numbers when its acknowledgged? no. not at all.

              football is a game a of a million different situations that are never identical really. if ur looking for some sort of formula that covers/blankets any situation that can happen (diff. scheme, number of step drop back, coverage, schedule, defense faced, etc etc etc) u aint gonna find it. no stat can encompass every possible outcomes reason. all u can do is go snap by snap and record the data, and do it the same for every team. when thats done, eli is pressured among the most in the nfl. i posted an article recently actually about this, i was surprised to learn that brees was right up there with eli in terms of performance under pressure.
              An offense that has many more 3 step drops will generally have far fewer "pressures" ( however its defined) than a team like ours with many more 7 step drops.
              Which would skew the numbers of "pressures" without it being effected by the quality of the O line.
              In other words, our offense can have more pressures while having our O line play better than a team with fewer pressures but use a lot of 3 step drops.
              Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

              Comment


              • #52
                We talk a lot about Eli's concistency. Using NFL.com statistics here is where Eli's QB ranking was between 2005 and 2012:

                2005 - 5
                2006 - 11
                2007 - 12
                2008 - 17
                2009 - 10
                2010 - 5
                2011 - 4
                2012 - 12

                If we take the last five years as a sample, an argument could be made that Eli was steadily improving, until 2012 when his ranking dropped 8 positions. Was 2012 an aberration? We won't know until this time next season.

                What happened in 2012 was not the fault of Eli or any one other person on the team. Going forward, we need to cut some players, add others, sign some and get mentally prepared to understand that we can't rely on past accomplishments and win enough games to be competitive. If we learned anything from 2012 is has to be that EVERY game demands the best effort each player has to offer.

                This is not a time for rebuilding. This is a time for self-reflection and a return to the ALL-IN mentality that saw us win the Super Bowl in 2011.
                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                  An offense that has many more 3 step drops will generally have far fewer "pressures" ( however its defined) than a team like ours with many more 7 step drops.
                  Which would skew the numbers of "pressures" without it being effected by the quality of the O line.
                  In other words, our offense can have more pressures while having our O line play better than a team with fewer pressures but use a lot of 3 step drops.
                  we all understand that basic premise. but thats a scheme thing. i acknowledge that, ur posts point, does that suddenly change the number of times eli was pressured? no. if we're gonna use so many 5 step drops, maybe we should get OL who can hold up a lil better

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
                    We talk a lot about Eli's concistency. Using NFL.com statistics here is where Eli's QB ranking was between 2005 and 2012:

                    2005 - 5
                    2006 - 11
                    2007 - 12
                    2008 - 17
                    2009 - 10
                    2010 - 5
                    2011 - 4
                    2012 - 12

                    If we take the last five years as a sample, an argument could be made that Eli was steadily improving, until 2012 when his ranking dropped 8 positions. Was 2012 an aberration? We won't know until this time next season.

                    What happened in 2012 was not the fault of Eli or any one other person on the team. Going forward, we need to cut some players, add others, sign some and get mentally prepared to understand that we can't rely on past accomplishments and win enough games to be competitive. If we learned anything from 2012 is has to be that EVERY game demands the best effort each player has to offer.

                    This is not a time for rebuilding. This is a time for self-reflection and a return to the ALL-IN mentality that saw us win the Super Bowl in 2011.
                    I'm sorry...ranked by what standard..
                    His 2010 was horrible and this list suggests he was much better in 2010 than in 2009. Both 08 and 09 were much better years than 2010.
                    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                      we all understand that basic premise. but thats a scheme thing. i acknowledge that, ur posts point, does that suddenly change the number of times eli was pressured? no. if we're gonna use so many 5 step drops, maybe we should get OL who can hold up a lil better
                      There are very few O lines who could have a passing attack with so many 7 step drops, and protect in the way that I think you are suggesting.
                      Point is that our O line did a decent job this year. Not as good last year.
                      Bringing us back to the original point that our QB played poorly this season compared to last. And there really aren't any valid excuses.
                      He just wasn't near as good of a football player.
                      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                        I'm sorry...ranked by what standard..
                        His 2010 was horrible and this list suggests he was much better in 2010 than in 2009. Both 08 and 09 were much better years than 2010.
                        Whatever standard NFL.com uses every season. All I can say for reliability is they are from the same source for each year. Assuming your perspective on those three years is correct, perhaps all we can take from this is stats don't tell the whole story. I do think it supports the inconsistency we talk about a lot here.
                        “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          u kidding MS, theres def at least 2 valid reasons that help explain elis lack of a career year and throwing less than 100 yards than he had the last 4 yrs; nicks health and issues with protection

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
                            Whatever standard NFL.com uses every season. All I can say for reliability is they are from the same source for each year. Assuming your perspective on those three years is correct, perhaps all we can take from this is stats don't tell the whole story. I do think it supports the inconsistency we talk about a lot here.
                            Must be total yards. Which is a nonsense indicator.

                            The reality is that Eli's career has not shown a steady increase in performance. He's had good years and not-so-good years and they are in random order.

                            His best year was 2011, followed by both 2008 and 2009. I would say his worst years were a tie between this year and 2010.
                            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                              u kidding MS, theres def at least 2 valid reasons that help explain elis lack of a career year and throwing less than 100 yards than he had the last 4 yrs; nicks health and issues with protection
                              The O lines worst season since Eli has been here was 2011. Yet that was Eli's best season. We protected better this year and his performance was much worse.
                              Its Eli's play that has been the difference.
                              Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                                Must be total yards. Which is a nonsense indicator.

                                The reality is that Eli's career has not shown a steady increase in performance. He's had good years and not-so-good years and they are in random order.

                                His best year was 2011, followed by both 2008 and 2009. I would say his worst years were a tie between this year and 2010.
                                Here's the QBR:

                                Regular Season

                                2008 - 21
                                2009 - 15
                                2010 - 27
                                2011 - 14
                                2012 - 23

                                Post Season


                                2008 - 11
                                2009 - --
                                2010 - --
                                2011 - 2
                                2012 - --
                                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

                                Comment

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