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168 REC, 2,628 yards, 15.6 YPC, 19 TD

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  • NYG4lifeNYK
    started a topic 168 REC, 2,628 yards, 15.6 YPC, 19 TD

    168 REC, 2,628 yards, 15.6 YPC, 19 TD

    Whose numbers are those you ask?

    Victor Cruz in two years.


    Comparison?



    Nicks 2 Years:

    126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

    Dez 2 years:

    110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



    First Three Years:


    Hakeem Nicks:

    202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Dez Bryant:

    200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Brandon Marshall:

    226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Calvin Johnson:

    193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Andre Johnson:


    208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Larry Fitzgerald:

    230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Demaryius Thomas:


    148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Michael Irvin:

    78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Cris Carter:


    111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Jerry Rice:


    200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Terrell Owens:

    162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Randy Moss:

    226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


    ----------------------------------------------------------



    Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


    His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding
    Last edited by NYG4lifeNYK; 01-23-2013, 07:57 PM.

  • RoanokeFan
    replied
    Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
    In summary, is Cruz worth 8-10 million? You bet he's worth every penny. Do we have that kind of money? We do not, but I'm sure he's not going to be ridiculous and ask for that much.
    Here's the problem we fans have. We look at every contract individually. Reese has to look at them all and make hard choices every season. We don't know who he is getting ready to release, ask to restructure, or take a pay cut. He and his team have to evaluate every players' performance, decide what they think is a fair offer, consider what FA will bring, and they decide who stays and who goes.

    It's just a complicated process made all the harder by the CAP. If the CAP is so restrictive for the Giants then players like Will Beatty, Victor Cruz, and Martellus Bennett will be wearing new uniforms in 2013. I'm thinking all three will be here.

    Leave a comment:


  • RoanokeFan
    replied
    Originally posted by TheAnalyst View Post
    We can't resign Nicks and Cruz unless Eli sheds some money. He jumps from 10M to 20M against the cap this year. I actually would consider Cruz over Nicks because Randle is more of a Nicks mould and most likely will be a much healthier athlete. Nicks is a beast though when healthy. Tough situation.
    There will be no "shedding money" for Eli or anyone else under contract. The players are entitled to every dime negotiated in their contracts. They can ask for a restructure which just spreads the existing money around over the rest of the contract. But unless they are ready to release a player under contract they are going to get every dime. I'm guessing Eli's not on the waiver wire any time soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rudy
    replied
    In summary, is Cruz worth 8-10 million? You bet he's worth every penny. Do we have that kind of money? We do not, but I'm sure he's not going to be ridiculous and ask for that much.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marvelousmik
    replied
    Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    It goes beyond productivity though and that's really my point. Wes Welker can have a 1700 yard season with 25 TDs, and Calvin Johnson, Fitz, and all those other guys will still command more money even if their stats aren't as good.
    It does go beyond productivity I agree with that. But it also goes beyond being a slot receiver or an outside receiver. it has to do with your skill set and what you bring to the table. If desean jackson was a slot receiver he would still make that kind of money because of what he brought to the table at the time of his first contract.

    So what does cruz do for our offense? He is a vertical threat, he can score from anywhere on the field and he is dangerous with the ball in his hands. Not only that, but he knows how to talk in front of the media, the fans love him, he doesn't get in off the field trouble and he has yet to miss a game. teams aren't going to over look all of those things and say "well he is a slot receiver. don't pay him". I'd be shocked if him and JR didn't come to an agreement. and if he doesn't get the money from here someone else will pay him.
    Last edited by Marvelousmik; 01-25-2013, 10:15 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • giantsfan420
    replied
    not to mention, the slot wr will usually be the "hot" (when the wr's defender is blitzing) wr...except when teams face us, they recognized cruz was a terror as the hot wr bc it mean he was getting into open space immediately and forcing a safety or corner to tackle him isolated. cruz almost always shakes that and gets huge YAC, so teams fundamentally changed it up...i dunno the #'s but it seemed like defenses went out of their way to ensure cruz wouldnt be the hot route...and its because of how dangerous he is out of the slot...but when he goes out wide, he doesnt suddenly lose his YAC ability either.

    Leave a comment:


  • giantsfan420
    replied
    ive noticed no one seems to have recognized that our offensive system also places more emphasis on the slot role. kg's is predicated on the sight adjustment routes and getting the 1v1's to exploit. Usually, well pre Cruz emergence, that was out of the slot. Since SS12 and Cruz have had amazing success out of the slot in KG's offense, teams have placed a much higher priority on defending it. I swear, when i watch other games, i rarely see bracket coverage or a combo coverage scheme on the slot wr like we almost always saw this past season (in part bc teams could with nicks hobbled. teams decided to basically leave either him or hixon/randle in 1v1 coverage). And part of the reason our offense had the struggles it did, was bc those particular games, Cruz was getting doubled effectively, and no one else was capable of threatening the D and sustaining it...

    when people try and downplay cruz bc hes a slot wr, they're almost thinking backwards. if anything, cruz's effectiveness out of the slot should be viewed differently than the erst of the league (sans a team like NE who also places a premium on the slot. coincidence both offenses usually rank among the best?) because in our offense, playing the slot isnt some lesser challenge than playing out wide...its as important and its why, imo, the guys we've found who played well out of the slot dont have issues moving out wide

    Leave a comment:


  • gmen46
    replied
    Originally posted by Marvelousmik View Post
    This is true. I dont know why people down play the slot so much. Steve smith averaged about 500 to 600 yards a season plying the slot. as soon as he was forced into the number 1 role when we only had him and manningham, he racked up 1200 yards. The fact that outside receivers are constantly putting up better numbers than slot receivers leads me to believe the slot might possibly be a harder position to play. It does come with more responsibility.
    +1

    Following the interesting debate in this thread, I find myself agreeing with the aspects of a good slot's role as you describe them. Your last 2 sentences describe the slot role -- and the reason it is not an easy one to fill by many teams -- best, in my opinion.

    In fact, this challenge was confirmed by Gilbride at the beginning of 2011 season, when asked who was going to fill the Smith role after we all learned of Smith's departure. As of Week 3, prior to the game vs Eagles, he admitted he still had no answer and was still in the process of determining who--if any--on the team was capable of stepping into that role. In fact, it was the reason we picked up Stokely--but then he was quickly injured.

    At the time, KG was thinking either Hixon (who went down for the season in the first half of game 2) or Manningham (who was concussed in the same game) were his best chances of developing at least an adequate replacement for Smith.

    And the reason he gave for it being so challenging a position to replace was that it is a much more complex position to play well consistently. The reason for this is that it requires not only certain physical attributes (primarily quickness and instinct), but it requires the ability to read the defensive formations in their entirety as it develops after the snap, and to instantly telegraph to his QB his resultant move, much more so than any outside receiver is required to do.

    I love what Nicks brings to our receiving corps. He brings more than any Giants receiver I can remember, going back to 1980 (and I was a huge fan of Toomer when he played, but Nicks will surpass all that he did for us, imo). Even though he had a fall off year this year, I see that as aberration due to injury and he will return to form next year and beyond. I believe he is comparable to Fitzgerald and in some ways to Michael Irvin in their respective abilities a "the Playmaker".

    But Cruz is a Welker with more height and speed. And, unlike Welker who is 6 years closer to the end of his career, Cruz is just beginning and has shown the ability to learn from mistakes and improve. And he can function at a high level on the outside when asked.

    Much--on this board--has been made of his drop to 1100+ yards in 2012 from 1500+ yards in 2011. I think this is very narrow thinking. A superior slot/wide receiver is more valuable to a team than is measured in total yards for a season. And after 2 complete seasons, Cruz has--to most fans at least--proven he is more than any "one hit wonder".

    Fact is, if we want to continue to be more like the Giants offense of 2011--and I believe we will--we need both Nicks and Cruz. They embody the phrase "the sum is greater than the parts".

    Because of that, in my opinion, Reese wants to find a way to keep Cruz in this off season, and equally wants to find a way to keep Nicks next off season. It will not come down to "either / or" as some on this board fear.

    Leave a comment:


  • gumby74
    replied
    Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

    I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

    What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.
    Originally posted by Marvelousmik View Post
    If they were a dime a dozen id know a lot of slot receivers with the type of production cruz and welker gives.(1000+ yards a season) That goes for you too.



    Exactly.

    And if you look at this list you will see that 1000+ yards for an outside receiver is the norm now.

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...2&d-447263-n=1
    It goes beyond productivity though and that's really my point. Wes Welker can have a 1700 yard season with 25 TDs, and Calvin Johnson, Fitz, and all those other guys will still command more money even if their stats aren't as good.

    Leave a comment:


  • GTGiantsFan
    replied
    Smith was a possession receiver, he could play the slot, but didn't have the speed to be a full time slot receiver like Hawkins, Harvin, Cruz, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marvelousmik
    replied
    Originally posted by Flip Empty View Post
    Cruz plays outside as well as the slot, though. Bit unfair labelling him a pure slot guy.
    This is true. I dont know why people down play the slot so much. Steve smith averaged about 500 to 600 yards a season plying the slot. as soon as he was forced into the number 1 role when we only had him and manningham, he racked up 1200 yards. The fact that outside receivers are constantly putting up better numbers than slot receivers leads me to believe the slot might possibly be a harder position to play. It does come with more responsibility.
    Last edited by Marvelousmik; 01-25-2013, 10:13 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Flip Empty
    replied
    Cruz plays outside as well as the slot, though. Bit unfair labelling him a pure slot guy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marvelousmik
    replied
    Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    .You don't "know" of any good slot guys because they're dime a dozen
    If they were a dime a dozen id know a lot of slot receivers with the type of production cruz and welker gives.(1000+ yards a season) That goes for you too.

    (Slots like Cruz and Welker are not though).
    Exactly.

    And if you look at this list you will see that 1000+ yards for an outside receiver is the norm now.

    http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...2&d-447263-n=1
    Last edited by Marvelousmik; 01-25-2013, 10:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • gumby74
    replied
    Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

    I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

    What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.
    Originally posted by Marvelousmik View Post
    A penny from the 1800's is more of value than a newly printed dollar. But the dollar is worth more. ( in terms of currency)

    an outside receiver is worth more than a slot receiver however, since outside receivers are a lot easier to find than slot receivers i value the slot guy more.

    If someone puts up 1200 yards from the outside and another person puts up 1200 from the slot, let me keep the slot guy and we can find someone else to play the outside. rarely would you see a slot receiver being this productive. That's just the way I look at it. if you look around the league you can probably find 15+ outside receivers with 1000+ yards. However you wont find many slot guys with that.

    I feel the same way when it comes to tight ends. If i had a choice between a young andre johnson, or a young Tony Gonzales, give me the tight end. we can always find another outside receiver. great tight ends are harder to come by.
    Again, you can look at it this way. You don't "know" of any good slot guys because they're dime a dozen (Slots like Cruz and Welker are not though). Slot WRs play a certain role in the offense. It's easier to find/replace that role. NFL economics pretty much says that. Once you have a slot that starts producing big plays like Welker/Cruz, then it starts overlapping with the outside. I'd say that most NFL don't expect their slot guy to give you outside like ability. And because of that, teams are not willing to pay a premium for that. It's something that they see as nice, but not necessary. You already have players that already fulfill that role as the outside guy.

    To put it in real life terms. If I need to drive 1 mile to the parking lot every day for work and I'm short on money. Do I buy a Toyota or a Ferrari. The Ferrari will get me their faster and has some other perks, but the Toyota will do the job well enough. You go with the Toyota.

    Leave a comment:


  • gumby74
    replied
    Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

    I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

    What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.
    Originally posted by Marvelousmik View Post
    I dont think this is true. its a lot easier to find someone like nicks than to find a cruz. Quick, in 10 seconds name 3 slot receivers in the NFL besides cruz and welker.

    Lol it would take you a lot longer to name 3 good slot receivers than to name 3 good receivers who line up on the outside. You probably dont know of any other good slot receivers. Honestly, there are a ton of guys now who can do what nicks does and win the jump balls. Randell showcased that ability later this season. And I can probably name you about 15 other guys in the league. Finding a home run hitter who can score from anywhere, and make people miss the way cruz does in the open field is harder to find in my opinion.

    Calvin johnson is in a totally different league from both nicks or cruz. Hes a rare talent and there isnt another receiver like him in the NFL really.
    I guess we'll agree to disagree.

    People can't name 3 really good slot receivers because imo, they're for the lack of a better term - non-descript. Slot guys aren't getting the money for a reason. They just aren't as valuable or are easier to find and replace.

    Leave a comment:

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