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  • #16
    Originally posted by penguinfarmer View Post
    I'm in the minority of thinking he is a better Sam than DE. His struggles this past season was they removed him from his role from 2011, where he was among the league leaders in TFLs for a 4-3 LB.
    I agree with you. Kiwi as always been an average DE and last year was an above-average LB (albeit a 2-down LB).

    But I'm going to be the cynical one who says that Kiwi's step backward last season is due to his long-term signing. A player in his position knows that all he really has to do is make the team, and he's in for big bucks for the next few years.

    I don't claim to know Kiwi as a person, or what's going on in his life, but I just think it's way too much of a coincidence that his play declines so much after one off-season.

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    • #17
      Ignoring Kiwi himself, I think the type of LB he played is more in line with what the Giants need. This whole notion of him "being out of place" just because he began as a DE is erroneous, despite the fact that many DEs make the move.

      As your larger oldschool Sam, his position is closer to a DE than a 3 down LB which everyone is pining for as more of a knee jerk response. He either shades inside the TE or right at the 7. This makes it easier for him to double back to the interior gaps, aiding the MLB while giving the containment role to the safety, which they are more than capable of doing. At the snap of the ball, he is meant to stack and shed the TE and play it much like a 2 gap lineman against an OL. If he has no presnap passing responsibilities, he's free to rush the passer as a DE against a TE which is a good matchup for him. This allows him to be more of a playmaker himself rather than force the run to others.

      The finesse Sam is usually more of a containment player, lining up outside of the TE at the 9 which exposes the MLB more while allowing the safety behind him to stay back, which is the opposite of what should happen on the Giants with who they currently have in Blackburn and their safeties.

      People also like to mention speed in LBs as a counter to the read option. I'd have to disagree in that I think the defensive line can be more important. Ideally, you'd like to force the pitch from the QB to the RB as soon as possible. Having a defensive line that can do that is optimal, but the larger 7T Sam is the alternative to forcing the issue.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by G-Men Surg. View Post
        The voice of reason has spoken !
        The same reasons I've been mentioning this couple of days. I know there's no magic wand to fix all issues at once but its pretty clear in my eyes that it has to start now and the draft its the safer way to go . I'm all in too for a 1st day pick at OL.
        To us, who have no skin in the game, it's easy to say get rid of player X. But the reality is it's never about ONE player. The Oline is a critical unit in terms of team success. Taking out one part of the puzzle is hard enough to fix in the short term. So when you look at free agency and realize you may actually lose the only two linemen who graded in positive territory in 2012 it's a lot more difficult than we allow for.

        If Beatty and Boothe were guaranteed to be here in 2013, then you can say dump Diehl since you then only have to find HIS replacement. Diehl is still serviceable as a player in the rotation and is the most versatile player on the line.

        We'll have a better sense of where we are when contracts begin to get signed and we know who will be here.
        “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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        • #19
          Originally posted by CDN_G-FAN View Post
          if they do move him back,how pissed should he be.

          the just spent the last 4 years trying to get him to play LBer from his natural position, now they're going to put his hand back down on the ground.

          they're lucky he's such a team player. can you imagine Osi being asked to change his playing position twice?
          I don't know how he's done it, to be honest.
          “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
            It's not just Diehl, although he's the immediate problem. Snee is getting long in the tooth in football years. I don't think we have the next man up and it's not likely we can keep both Boothe and Beatty
            we have to find a way to keep boothe and beatty
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            FUTURE NY GIANTS PLAYER

            2015 season tbd

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ryan12 View Post
              we have to find a way to keep boothe and beatty
              Beatty is the only immediate O-lineman we have to find a way to keep. Boothe, Bass, Snee, Diehl can all go join the Redskins, Eagles, Cowboys, or Jets for all I care. They could hardly pass block and don't even get me started on run blocking. This draft should be ALL O-line if there are good ones available.

              As for Kiwi, move him back to DE and lets field JWill, Blackburn(if we can't find better), and Boley, with Rivers coming in often for JWill who will be immediately injured.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by CDN_G-FAN View Post
                if they do move him back,how pissed should he be.

                the just spent the last 4 years trying to get him to play LBer from his natural position, now they're going to put his hand back down on the ground.

                they're lucky he's such a team player. can you imagine Osi being asked to change his playing position twice?
                That's why Osi should be gone. Besides being a liability on running plays, the guy's a diva. If he stays, he should be used exclusively on passing downs and for that limited duty it should be a t a reduced price. He is no longer worth his paycheck.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by VBGiantsFan View Post
                  Beatty is the only immediate O-lineman we have to find a way to keep. Boothe, Bass, Snee, Diehl can all go join the Redskins, Eagles, Cowboys, or Jets for all I care. They could hardly pass block and don't even get me started on run blocking. This draft should be ALL O-line if there are good ones available.

                  As for Kiwi, move him back to DE and lets field JWill, Blackburn(if we can't find better), and Boley, with Rivers coming in often for JWill who will be immediately injured.
                  I don't have a problem with Boothe, and Snee just made the pro-bowl, he's going no where.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
                    To us, who have no skin in the game, it's easy to say get rid of player X. But the reality is it's never about ONE player. The Oline is a critical unit in terms of team success. Taking out one part of the puzzle is hard enough to fix in the short term. So when you look at free agency and realize you may actually lose the only two linemen who graded in positive territory in 2012 it's a lot more difficult than we allow for.

                    If Beatty and Boothe were guaranteed to be here in 2013, then you can say dump Diehl since you then only have to find HIS replacement. Diehl is still serviceable as a player in the rotation and is the most versatile player on the line.

                    We'll have a better sense of where we are when contracts begin to get signed and we know who will be here.
                    If you ask me I have a hunch Beatty will get his contract or gets the franchise tag and Boothe walks ( that said I like Boothe ) and the Giants drafts a 2 nd round G/C.
                    " Success is never final, but failure can be " B.P.

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