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  • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
    That's exactly where I'm coming from. Without a ranking system, terms like "good", bad", "elite" have no meaning.

    Coming from an armed forces point of view, you have the grunts in the army, then the navy, then the seals, then seal team 7. To mean, Seal team 7 is elite or best of the best. But just a navy seal isn't - although it's still freaking awesome.

    It so happens to happens that maybe my definition of "elite" is not as broad as others. When 7 members out of 32 are termed elite, something just doesn't sit right.
    Maybe something doesn't sit right because you're looking at the subjects from a flawed perspective--as many do when debating "elite" NFL QBs, in fact. This is not to criticize your viewpoint (and I think your military analogy for your definition of "elite" is as good as any other I've seen, and better than most).

    But I would ask you to consider a different perspective on this subject.

    Each season for each team is unique, in terms of rosters, because of the normal attrition of age, retirements,free agency/trade losses and gains, and the draft. Would you not agree?

    With that in mind, consider that each season begins with 32 starting QBs, ALL of whom are paid--big, big bucks in most cases--to lead their respective team to the Super Bowl and a SB victory. Agree?

    Consider also that each season ends for most teams with having started at least one replacement QB for at least 1 if not more games during the season. At a very rough guess, you could say that at least 50 different QBs start at least 1 game each season. That means that each season there are at least 50 QBs vying for a Super Bowl--at least part of the season, if not for all of it.

    Then let's look at the last 7 years--may seem an arbitrary number of years, but is an appropriate number when you consider the QBs most frequently referred to as "elite"

    The last 7 years there were at least 50 players trying to lead their team to the Promised Land. Again, this is a guess without me reviewing all 32 teams' 16 games for each of past 7 years, but I believe I'm erring on tghe conservative side of the real number.

    50 x 7 = 350 players. Overlapping players/years, yes, but as a pool from which to determine "eliteness", it is a valid contextual concept for this debate.

    Consider there have been 7 Super Bowl winning teams, with 7 winning QBs, of course. Well actually 6 different winning QBs.
    2006 season = Peyton Manning as SB winning QB
    2007 = Eli Manning
    2008 = Ben Roethlisberger
    2009 = Drew Brees
    2010 = Aaron "oh-my-God-he's-so-great" Rodgers
    2011 = Eli Manning
    2012 = Joe "is-he-now-elite-or-not" Flacco

    Three of these winners--Peyton, Brees, Rodgers--are on everybody's "elite" list, as is one--Brady--who has lost 2 SBs during that time span. And Roethlisberger, who is not on everybody's "elite" list, is at least on most fans' top 5 or top 6 QB list.

    And they all have won only 1 SB in that time frame, while the other has lost 2 (although of course Brady has won 3 SBs early in his career and having gone to 2 more SBs since, places him at the top of the true "elite" imo)

    Yet, Eli, as 1 of 6 SB winning Qbs the last 7 years (16.6% of QBs) is the only one to win 2 of the last 7 SBs (28.5% SBs) where the other 5 winning QBs (each = 16.6% of QBs) have won 1 (14% of SBs)..

    That may be too small and esoteric a sample to make the case for elite. But going back to the at least 350 players trying over the past 7 years to win the SB, Eli being the only 1 of 350 to win the prize not just once, but twice, puts him in the 99.3 percentile of top achievement of NFL Qbs over the past 7 years.

    So Eli is not "elite" in the eyes of many. OK, I get that. The term is a rather ill-defined term and is often mis-applied at any rate.

    But while you may think I'm overstating the pool from which to judge Eli by counting the top Qbs who have started most of their games in this time frame multiple times, your 7 out of 32 does not make for the appropriate comparison either.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      That's fine. I get that completely. I personally think the "kids table" comment made no sense at all. But clearly he was just trying to be colorful. It IS ESPN after all.
      And anyone is free to defend Eli. I would defend Eli in this context because I don't think Edwards was giving Eli near enough credit. Its not the defending of Eli that bothers me at all. Its the attacks on Edwards. Its the suggestion that since he had a losing record as a HC, he has no understanding of football and is in no position to comment on current players. Its the suggestions that posters on a MB, none of whom every played or coached a down in the NFL are therefore MORE credible than this guy.
      We all have our opinions and they are what they are. But I knew the reaction wouldn't be "Edwards is wrong and here's why". It was "Edwards is a scumbag and an incompetent".
      Thats not really a defense of Eli at all.
      Blasting Edwards with both barrels is probably the very worst avenue people could go down in an attempt to defend Eli......I agree.
      I only take issue with Edwards choice of words, because I believe they reeked of disrespect for Eli's toughness and all he's accomplished in his career...which is quite a lot if people would take the time to look it up.
      Who among the top name QB's in the league this past season really deserved to sit at the big boys table over Eli? Brees, Peyton, Rodgers, Roethlisberger to name a few also had some awful performances at times this season, leading to early post season elimination or no playoffs at all.
      "I'M ALL FOR IT!"

      John McKay, HC of the 1976 winless TB Buccaneers, when asked by a reporter, how McKay felt, about the execution of his offense.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
        Maybe something doesn't sit right because you're looking at the subjects from a flawed perspective--as many do when debating "elite" NFL QBs, in fact. This is not to criticize your viewpoint (and I think your military analogy for your definition of "elite" is as good as any other I've seen, and better than most).

        But I would ask you to consider a different perspective on this subject.

        Each season for each team is unique, in terms of rosters, because of the normal attrition of age, retirements,free agency/trade losses and gains, and the draft. Would you not agree?

        With that in mind, consider that each season begins with 32 starting QBs, ALL of whom are paid--big, big bucks in most cases--to lead their respective team to the Super Bowl and a SB victory. Agree?

        Consider also that each season ends for most teams with having started at least one replacement QB for at least 1 if not more games during the season. At a very rough guess, you could say that at least 50 different QBs start at least 1 game each season. That means that each season there are at least 50 QBs vying for a Super Bowl--at least part of the season, if not for all of it.

        Then let's look at the last 7 years--may seem an arbitrary number of years, but is an appropriate number when you consider the QBs most frequently referred to as "elite"

        The last 7 years there were at least 50 players trying to lead their team to the Promised Land. Again, this is a guess without me reviewing all 32 teams' 16 games for each of past 7 years, but I believe I'm erring on tghe conservative side of the real number.

        50 x 7 = 350 players. Overlapping players/years, yes, but as a pool from which to determine "eliteness", it is a valid contextual concept for this debate.

        Consider there have been 7 Super Bowl winning teams, with 7 winning QBs, of course. Well actually 6 different winning QBs.
        2006 season = Peyton Manning as SB winning QB
        2007 = Eli Manning
        2008 = Ben Roethlisberger
        2009 = Drew Brees
        2010 = Aaron "oh-my-God-he's-so-great" Rodgers
        2011 = Eli Manning
        2012 = Joe "is-he-now-elite-or-not" Flacco

        Three of these winners--Peyton, Brees, Rodgers--are on everybody's "elite" list, as is one--Brady--who has lost 2 SBs during that time span. And Roethlisberger, who is not on everybody's "elite" list, is at least on most fans' top 5 or top 6 QB list.

        And they all have won only 1 SB in that time frame, while the other has lost 2 (although of course Brady has won 3 SBs early in his career and having gone to 2 more SBs since, places him at the top of the true "elite" imo)

        Yet, Eli, as 1 of 6 SB winning Qbs the last 7 years (16.6% of QBs) is the only one to win 2 of the last 7 SBs (28.5% SBs) where the other 5 winning QBs (each = 16.6% of QBs) have won 1 (14% of SBs)..

        That may be too small and esoteric a sample to make the case for elite. But going back to the at least 350 players trying over the past 7 years to win the SB, Eli being the only 1 of 350 to win the prize not just once, but twice, puts him in the 99.3 percentile of top achievement of NFL Qbs over the past 7 years.

        So Eli is not "elite" in the eyes of many. OK, I get that. The term is a rather ill-defined term and is often mis-applied at any rate.

        But while you may think I'm overstating the pool from which to judge Eli by counting the top Qbs who have started most of their games in this time frame multiple times, your 7 out of 32 does not make for the appropriate comparison either.
        Maybe I missed something, but why doesn't my 7 out of 32 make an appropriate comparison? My rebuttal to your statements would have been that you went a little overboard on creating the pool of QBs to compafre Eli with. But you already said at the end that you did go overboard.

        And you should know by now that SB wins don't mean a whole lot in my book.
        http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
        http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
        http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

        Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

        Comment


        • Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
          But that goes back to my previous point. Take the early '90s when you have 7 future HOF's playing. Who in the group do you say is good but not elite. Do you say sorry Aikman and Young, even though you're both going to the hall of fame, we can't call you elite because then we would have too many elite QB's.
          We'll call you elite when some of the older guys retire and there is more room for you?
          Ok. Let me put it this way. When Marino, Elway, and Kelly were playing in their primes, Aikman and Young were NOT elite. However, when Marino Elway and Kelly were gone or over the hill, Aikman and Young became elite. It's might be just me, but i don't use the term elite loosely.

          It absolutely is a numbers game.
          http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
          http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
          http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

          Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

          Comment


          • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
            Ok. Let me put it this way. When Marino, Elway, and Kelly were playing in their primes, Aikman and Young were NOT elite. However, when Marino Elway and Kelly were gone or over the hill, Aikman and Young became elite. It's might be just me, but i don't use the term elite loosely.

            It absolutely is a numbers game.
            That's just not true. Aikmen had 3 rings before Elway got his first. Aikmen also beat Jim Kelly in the SB twice. Steve Young also got his ring before Elway got his. And when Marino retired Aikman had 10 years in the league already, and 3 championships.

            Young and Aikman were "elite" QB's long before these guys were over the hill.
            #80

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              Oh I know who he meant. Its just that the author is an idiot. To bring up the Pro Bowls is nonsense. He was a substitute in all 3 when other QB's didn't want to go.
              Its just ridiculous. Bringing up Edwards record for God's sake? He was a good assistant coach and not a very good HC. But he played in the league a long time and had success both as a player and a coach. he obviously knows a heck a lot about the NFL. You can disagree...that's fine. But to tell fans (none of whom every won a single game in the NFL as a HC or assistant, including this writer) that his record as a HC disqualifies him from commenting on current players is rather ......."Cultish".
              I was not a substitute for the 2008 & 2011 pro bowls.

              -#10

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Manning View Post
                I was not a substitute for the 2008 & 2011 pro bowls.

                -#10
                I really don't think your schtick could be any more boring.
                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                  I really don't think your schtick could be any more boring.
                  This is thread #84,962 discussing whether Eli is "elite" or not. The same people, saying the same things over and over and over again, and with the exact same results over and over and over again. Bringing a little levity to an otherwise impossibly pointless(and indeed BORING) discussion, I would think, would be a welcome change.
                  The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd - Bertrand Russell

                  Comment


                  • It is funny how he can diss Eli one of the good passers in the NFL.

                    Comment


                    • Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That doesn't mean they should be entitled to a microphone. Herm is determined to get more attention as a commentator than he did as a HC. He stated a position he's entitled to have in an amateurish way.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                        You are failing to understand my point here completely. My comments have nothing to do with Eli. As I said, I disagree with his point about Eli.
                        My point is the overreaction of posters to any public comments that aren't glowing of Eli.
                        And to attack anyone who dares express such views.
                        It's the NYG boards. As long as it is not personal attack against each other, which is banned here, and which you have said we should all start playing nice, I believe criticizing these talking heads is all fair play. We can question their credibility or discredit their merits and accomplishments, who really cares? That's what this board is for. We can't be serious, logical and rational all the time, or it won't be fun.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                          Ok. Let me put it this way. When Marino, Elway, and Kelly were playing in their primes, Aikman and Young were NOT elite. However, when Marino Elway and Kelly were gone or over the hill, Aikman and Young became elite. It's might be just me, but i don't use the term elite loosely.

                          It absolutely is a numbers game.
                          Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
                          That's just not true. Aikmen had 3 rings before Elway got his first. Aikmen also beat Jim Kelly in the SB twice. Steve Young also got his ring before Elway got his. And when Marino retired Aikman had 10 years in the league already, and 3 championships.

                          Young and Aikman were "elite" QB's long before these guys were over the hill.
                          c'mon now. SB wins is a team effort. back then if you said aikman and young were better then any of those guys, you'd get laughed at.
                          http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                          http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                          http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                          Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                            Oh I know who he meant. Its just that the author is an idiot. To bring up the Pro Bowls is nonsense. He was a substitute in all 3 when other QB's didn't want to go.
                            Its just ridiculous. Bringing up Edwards record for God's sake? He was a good assistant coach and not a very good HC. But he played in the league a long time and had success both as a player and a coach. he obviously knows a heck a lot about the NFL. You can disagree...that's fine. But to tell fans (none of whom every won a single game in the NFL as a HC or assistant, including this writer) that his record as a HC disqualifies him from commenting on current players is rather ......."Cultish".
                            I think you're way off base on this one, bro. Edwards didn't just give an opinion....he went out of his way to be insulting. He deserves the backlash he gets from Giants fans.
                            I stopped fighting my inner demons. We're on the same side now.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                              c'mon now. SB wins is a team effort. back then if you said aikman and young were better then any of those guys, you'd get laughed at.
                              I'm not saying they were better, I am just saying they were also elite/superstars at the same time as the guys you mentioned. I am not trying to rank the QBs in any order, nor am I trying to convince anyone that Eli is elite. I am just saying you can have a bunch of QBs that are considered elite at the same time.
                              #80

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FBomb View Post
                                I think you're way off base on this one, bro. Edwards didn't just give an opinion....he went out of his way to be insulting. He deserves the backlash he gets from Giants fans.
                                Some people on here don't like loyalty. Or maybe they just like being contrary.

                                Comment

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