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  • Originally posted by P_Simms_#11 View Post
    Some people on here don't like loyalty.Or maybe they just like being contrary.
    This right here.
    Mood: WOOF!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by FBomb View Post
      I think you're way off base on this one, bro. Edwards didn't just give an opinion....he went out of his way to be insulting. He deserves the backlash he gets from Giants fans.
      Why would he do that? Do you think he's has some vendetta agianst Eli Manning? You are looking for a hidden agenda where one does not exist.
      He was just trying to use his dopey "homey" style.
      Everybody is a tad too sensitive here in my view. Agree or disagree...that's fine. But to say that since he was a crappy coach that he has no right or credibility to state his opinion is way off the mark.

      Trust me...If he had said that Eli was an "elite" QB, everybody would be talking about how much they like Herm Edwards. And how a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL has great perspective.
      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
        Why would he do that? Do you think he's has some vendetta agianst Eli Manning? You are looking for a hidden agenda where one does not exist.
        He was just trying to use his dopey "homey" style.
        Everybody is a tad too sensitive here in my view. Agree or disagree...that's fine. But to say that since he was a crappy coach that he has no right or credibility to state his opinion is way off the mark.

        Trust me...If he had said that Eli was an "elite" QB, everybody would be talking about how much they like Herm Edwards. And how a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL has great perspective.
        On one thing I will agree, this comment by Edwards has gotten way more attention than it really deserves and about 8 pages ago my criticism was meant to be light hearted. That said...............

        Most in the media aren't truly qualified, anymore than you or me, to comment on a player's status. The difference is that they get paid for it and we don't. Still our opinions are worth about the same with most talking heads. I have said many times, if they really knew talent they'd be a GM some where or running the draft for an NFL team.

        All of that said, hanging around the NFL for a long time is also not a qualification to be an analyst. You are, afterall, talking about a HC who needed a guy standing next to him during the games just to manage the clock at the end of games. Now there is a real qualification for you!

        I'll give him this, he is qualified to be an entertainer which most of the time he accomplishes. He is not impossible to listen to like some of his peers and he brings good energy to the job. However, that doesn't mean he is anymore qualified than you or me to assess talent.
        Last edited by jomo; 02-16-2013, 04:52 PM.
        No one remembers who came in second.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
          Why would he do that? Do you think he's has some vendetta agianst Eli Manning? You are looking for a hidden agenda where one does not exist.
          He was just trying to use his dopey "homey" style.
          Everybody is a tad too sensitive here in my view. Agree or disagree...that's fine. But to say that since he was a crappy coach that he has no right or credibility to state his opinion is way off the mark.

          Trust me...If he had said that Eli was an "elite" QB, everybody would be talking about how much they like Herm Edwards. And how a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL has great perspective.
          Conceptually, I agree with almost every word you said.

          I actually was going to reply that I have always found Herm the analyst to be entertaining and he can be as insightful as most

          What struck me was this: Herm being a crappy coach certainly doesn't give him credibility, does it?
          Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Why would he do that? Do you think he's has some vendetta agianst Eli Manning? You are looking for a hidden agenda where one does not exist.
            He was just trying to use his dopey "homey" style.
            Everybody is a tad too sensitive here in my view. Agree or disagree...that's fine. But to say that since he was a crappy coach that he has no right or credibility to state his opinion is way off the mark.

            Trust me...If he had said that Eli was an "elite" QB, everybody would be talking about how much they like Herm Edwards. And how a guy who has spent his entire adult life in the NFL has great perspective.
            There's a difference between stating your opinion on whether Eli is elite or not, but....."He can sit at the kid's table, but he can't order from the menu"......that's not being insulting? Please, bro....you're letting your hatred for the "cultists" cloud your judgement. SOMETIMES people do say things about Eli that ANY Giants fan should take offense to. I think this is one of them. It's disrespectful.... imo
            Last edited by FBomb; 02-16-2013, 05:25 PM.
            I stopped fighting my inner demons. We're on the same side now.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
              Maybe I missed something, but why doesn't my 7 out of 32 make an appropriate comparison? My rebuttal to your statements would have been that you went a little overboard on creating the pool of QBs to compafre Eli with. But you already said at the end that you did go overboard.

              And you should know by now that SB wins don't mean a whole lot in my book.
              Discarding multiple Super Bowl wins and multiple Super Bowl MVPs, when evaluating the quality of an NFL QBs performances over the course of his career may be a convenient way to insist upon your points in this debate, but it is a convenience of assumption not shared by most sports pundits, players, ex players, coaches, and fans.

              Of course football is the ultimate team sport, so of course championships are won--or lost--as a result of the team's performance as a whole.

              But fact that applies to every single game a QB plays in throughout his career, not just championship games. So I find it curious when you and all those who share your thinking on this, that when debating a QB's "eliteness", that his "individual" stats ("individual" is even questionable since every QB requires receivers to catch a QB's passes in order to produce his stats) seem to weigh more heavily in your opinion for designating a specific QB "elite" than do the facts of championship)s) won by said QB and his team.

              It occurs to me now that assuming that perspective of yours regarding the "eliteness" of a given QB, the term really is silly and entirely meaningless.

              Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories. After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

              Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans.

              (And before the overused "So Marino was not elite and is not deserving of his HOF award?", or "I guess you think Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett were elite and should be in the HOF?" is raised, these are all examples of the few exceptions that prove the rule). Marino and Kelly clearly achieved during their careers what very few, if any, pro QBs ever did during theirs, in spite of not winning a SB. Dilfer, Johnson, Plunkett were clearly mediocre QBs--just look at their career stats, team wins, etc--who were in the right place at the right time to be on a SB winner. This happens, but rearely enough to be exceptions.

              With that in mind, the only truly elite active QBs are Brady followed by Peyton Manning, who are the only ones who have consistently put up superlative passing stats and superlative number of post season appearances and wins throughout their careers (13 and 15 years, respectively, including a missed season for each). Brady out shines Peyton overall in this regard, although Peyton is a unique player and QB regardless of number of SB wins, thus belongs in the same sentence as Brady.

              Roethlisberger has wins, post season wins including 2 SBs, and good passing stats overall, and is legitimately in the discussion, but is not a consensus fan favorite to be called elite.

              But Brees (in the league only 2 fewer years than Brady, 4 fewer than Peyton), and Rodgers really are not legitimately in this category yet. How can they be? They both have terrific passing stats, and overall good win-loss records, but still have each won only 1 SB to go with those passing stats.

              Since Rodgers is in his prime (and in terms of age and time in the NFL is only 1 year less than Roethlisberger and Eli), it can be argued he will in all likelihood, along with Peyton, come in second to Brady in terms of his combination of passing stats and post season appearances and wins after his career is done.

              In light of all this, I find a bit perplexing the insistence on the part of those Giants fans who focus entirely upon Eli's passing stats--which, so far in his career are mostly very good but not close to the superlative level of Brady, Peyton, Brees and Rodgers' (so far)--while appearing to diminish Eli's post season accomplishments which compare very favorably to Peyton, Roethlisberger, Brees, Rodgers, and even Brady over the course of the past 6 Super Bowl seasons of all these QBs.

              I see QBs Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers consistently considered as the consensus "elite" QBs. There is a mixed opinion about Roethlisberger being considered elite. And there is mixed opinion even among Giants fans about Eli being considered elite.

              And of these consensus elite QBs in the last 12 years, Brady has appeared in five Super Bowls winning 3 SBs (thus making him a slam-dunk All World, guaranteed HOF QB)

              Roethlisberger has 2-1 Super Bowl record, Peyton is 1-1. Brees is 1-0 and Rodgers is 1-0 in the Super Bowl.

              Eli is 2-0 in Super Bowl appearances in his 9 year career so far, with at least as many years remaining in his career as Roethlisberger, Rodgers and Brees, and likely several more years remaining than Peyton and Brady. And the fact that in 46 years, there have been only FIVE QBs who have been awarded multiple Super Bowl MVP awards--Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Eli--is no small accomplishment. Three of the other four are in the HOF, and the 4th is guaranteed to be elected first ballot HOF when eligible for induction.

              Yet Eli is considered by many Giants fans as not deserving of the rather vague, very subjective, and ultimately meaningless term "elite QB".

              It's just a Strange debate to have among Giants fans in particular (ie, I wouldn't expect Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins fans to concede any accolades to a Giants QB, for example)..
              Last edited by gmen46; 02-16-2013, 06:13 PM.

              Comment


              • I think Edwards was spot on. Eli has had one elite performing year in his career- 2011. He was elite for the whole year then, but for the rest of his career he's been very inconsistent. I think there is a clear gap of talent between the top 4 QBs and every other QB. Eli is not in my top 4. I've got AR, then Brady, then Peyton, then Brees, and then a drop off in talent, and then Eli. If you say Eli is the best in the league then you and I are watching a different sport. The 4 aforementioned QBs have year in and year out put up great numbers and played at an elite level. Brees I find impressive, b/c he's been successful in two different offenses even though his stats are close to Eli's. AR is just the best doing it right now; mobility, accuracy, arm strength, decision making he's the clear number one now.

                I will say that Eli's clutch factor is elite. When the pressure is on I think he raises his level of play better than any of the other QB's, but this alone doesn't make him an elite QB. His inconsistency is what separates him from the elite group. He has too many games and throws where you're left wondering what the hell is going on.
                Last edited by B&RWarrior; 02-16-2013, 09:02 PM.
                Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                Comment


                • [QUOTE=gmen46;686291]

                  Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories. After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

                  Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans.

                  (And before the overused "So Marino was not elite and is not deserving of his HOF award?", or "I guess you think Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett were elite and should be in the HOF?" is raised, these are all examples of the few exceptions that prove the rule). Marino and Kelly clearly achieved during their careers what very few, if any, pro QBs ever did during theirs, in spite of not winning a SB. Dilfer, Johnson, Plunkett were clearly mediocre QBs--just look at their career stats, team wins, etc--who were in the right place at the right time to be on a SB winner. This happens, but rearely enough to be exceptions.


                  Roethlisberger has wins, post season wins including 2 SBs, and good passing stats overall, and is legitimately in the discussion, but is not a consensus fan favorite to be called elite.

                  QUOTE]

                  Huge flaw in your logic. The best way to measure a QB is performance. SB victories alone is a poorer measure of a QB's ability than a Qbs actual performance. You can win SBs with defense and a strong running game, none of which have 1 to 1 correlations with QB play. Big Ben had both on his SB winning teams. There are more of those "exceptions" that you listed that contradict your point. Jim Kelly never won a SB and Jim McMahon won one, but who would you rather be your QB? Warren Moon or Flacco? Eli has 2 SBs and AR has one, but by your logic Eli is the better QB because he has more SB victories.

                  Elite is just a term used to describe QB's who's play is head and shoulders above their peers. IMO, Eli's play over HIS ENTIRE CAREER doesn't justify this label.
                  Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                  http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
                    Discarding multiple Super Bowl wins and multiple Super Bowl MVPs, when evaluating the quality of an NFL QBs performances over the course of his career may be a convenient way to insist upon your points in this debate, but it is a convenience of assumption not shared by most sports pundits, players, ex players, coaches, and fans.

                    Of course football is the ultimate team sport, so of course championships are won--or lost--as a result of the team's performance as a whole.

                    But fact that applies to every single game a QB plays in throughout his career, not just championship games. So I find it curious when you and all those who share your thinking on this, that when debating a QB's "eliteness", that his "individual" stats ("individual" is even questionable since every QB requires receivers to catch a QB's passes in order to produce his stats) seem to weigh more heavily in your opinion for designating a specific QB "elite" than do the facts of championship)s) won by said QB and his team.

                    It occurs to me now that assuming that perspective of yours regarding the "eliteness" of a given QB, the term really is silly and entirely meaningless.

                    Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories. After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

                    Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans.

                    (And before the overused "So Marino was not elite and is not deserving of his HOF award?", or "I guess you think Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett were elite and should be in the HOF?" is raised, these are all examples of the few exceptions that prove the rule). Marino and Kelly clearly achieved during their careers what very few, if any, pro QBs ever did during theirs, in spite of not winning a SB. Dilfer, Johnson, Plunkett were clearly mediocre QBs--just look at their career stats, team wins, etc--who were in the right place at the right time to be on a SB winner. This happens, but rearely enough to be exceptions.

                    With that in mind, the only truly elite active QBs are Brady followed by Peyton Manning, who are the only ones who have consistently put up superlative passing stats and superlative number of post season appearances and wins throughout their careers (13 and 15 years, respectively, including a missed season for each). Brady out shines Peyton overall in this regard, although Peyton is a unique player and QB regardless of number of SB wins, thus belongs in the same sentence as Brady.

                    Roethlisberger has wins, post season wins including 2 SBs, and good passing stats overall, and is legitimately in the discussion, but is not a consensus fan favorite to be called elite.

                    But Brees (in the league only 2 fewer years than Brady, 4 fewer than Peyton), and Rodgers really are not legitimately in this category yet. How can they be? They both have terrific passing stats, and overall good win-loss records, but still have each won only 1 SB to go with those passing stats.

                    Since Rodgers is in his prime (and in terms of age and time in the NFL is only 1 year less than Roethlisberger and Eli), it can be argued he will in all likelihood, along with Peyton, come in second to Brady in terms of his combination of passing stats and post season appearances and wins after his career is done.

                    In light of all this, I find a bit perplexing the insistence on the part of those Giants fans who focus entirely upon Eli's passing stats--which, so far in his career are mostly very good but not close to the superlative level of Brady, Peyton, Brees and Rodgers' (so far)--while appearing to diminish Eli's post season accomplishments which compare very favorably to Peyton, Roethlisberger, Brees, Rodgers, and even Brady over the course of the past 6 Super Bowl seasons of all these QBs.

                    I see QBs Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers consistently considered as the consensus "elite" QBs. There is a mixed opinion about Roethlisberger being considered elite. And there is mixed opinion even among Giants fans about Eli being considered elite.

                    And of these consensus elite QBs in the last 12 years, Brady has appeared in five Super Bowls winning 3 SBs (thus making him a slam-dunk All World, guaranteed HOF QB)

                    Roethlisberger has 2-1 Super Bowl record, Peyton is 1-1. Brees is 1-0 and Rodgers is 1-0 in the Super Bowl.

                    Eli is 2-0 in Super Bowl appearances in his 9 year career so far, with at least as many years remaining in his career as Roethlisberger, Rodgers and Brees, and likely several more years remaining than Peyton and Brady. And the fact that in 46 years, there have been only FIVE QBs who have been awarded multiple Super Bowl MVP awards--Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Eli--is no small accomplishment. Three of the other four are in the HOF, and the 4th is guaranteed to be elected first ballot HOF when eligible for induction.

                    Yet Eli is considered by many Giants fans as not deserving of the rather vague, very subjective, and ultimately meaningless term "elite QB".

                    It's just a Strange debate to have among Giants fans in particular (ie, I wouldn't expect Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins fans to concede any accolades to a Giants QB, for example)..
                    Huge flaw in your logic. The best way to measure a QB is performance. SB victories alone is a poorer measure of a QB's ability than a Qbs actual performance. You can win SBs with defense and a strong running game, none of which have 1 to 1 correlations with QB play. Big Ben had both on his SB winning teams. There are more of those "exceptions" that you listed that contradict your point. Jim Kelly never won a SB and Jim McMahon won one, but who would you rather be your QB? Warren Moon or Flacco? Eli has 2 SBs and AR has one, but by your logic Eli is the better QB because he has more SB victories.

                    Elite is just a term used to describe QB's who's play is head and shoulders above their peers. IMO, Eli's play over HIS ENTIRE CAREER doesn't justify this label.
                    Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                    Comment


                    • I think Eli is the 5th best QB. While Herm Edwards is a tool Eli isn't really the same level as the 4 QBs above him (Rodgers, Brees, Brady and Peyton). Eli is still right up there so suck it Herm.

                      But he's not exactly wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                        I think Edwards was spot on. Eli has had one elite performing year in his career- 2011. He was elite for the whole year then, but for the rest of his career he's been very inconsistent. I think there is a clear gap of talent between the top 4 QBs and every other QB. Eli is not in my top 4. I've got AR, then Brady, then Peyton, then Brees, and then a drop off in talent, and then Eli. If you say Eli is the best in the league then you and I are watching a different sport. The 4 aforementioned QBs have year in and year out put up great numbers and played at an elite level. Brees I find impressive, b/c he's been successful in two different offenses even though his stats are close to Eli's. AR is just the best doing it right now; mobility, accuracy, arm strength, decision making he's the clear number one now.

                        I will say that Eli's clutch factor is elite. When the pressure is on I think he raises his level of play better than any of the other QB's, but this alone doesn't make him an elite QB. His inconsistency is what separates him from the elite group. He has too many games and throws where you're left wondering what the hell is going on.
                        So he was elite in 2011, but in 2012 his number 1 receiver is injured and is pretty much a decoy all year resulting in a drop off of Eli's stats and now he isn't elite anymore?
                        #80

                        Comment


                        • You can't be "elite" one year, and then become un-elite lol. You are either "elite" or you aren't.
                          Mood: WOOF!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
                            So he was elite in 2011, but in 2012 his number 1 receiver is injured and is pretty much a decoy all year resulting in a drop off of Eli's stats and now he isn't elite anymore?
                            He wasn't elite in any year before 2011 either. To say that his stats this year were due to Nicks being hurt would be less than honest. There were several games this year where he was just not on his game and that has been his MO throughout his career.
                            Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                            http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
                              You can't be "elite" one year, and then become un-elite lol. You are either "elite" or you aren't.
                              2011 was the anomaly to Eli's career. In 2011 he would rank as an elite QB, strictly judging him on that year alone. See how that works now?
                              Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                              http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                                2011 was the anomaly to Eli's career. In 2011 he would rank as an elite QB, strictly judging him on that year alone. See how that works now?
                                No, I don't because 1.) How does one measure elitness? 2.) Me personally, you should judge a player by his career, and not what he did for one year.
                                Mood: WOOF!

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