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  • And 2011 was the only time Eli had a chance to attempt throws at a rate like the top QBs..

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    • Originally posted by Rudyy View Post
      No, I don't because 1.) How does one measure elitness? 2.) Me personally, you should judge a player by his career, and not what he did for one year.
      Elitness is personal there is no standard, but that wasn't my argument. My argument was that it's possible to separate a players performance from one season to the next. IMO in 2011 Eli played on an elite level. For his career Eli has been above average but not great or elite.
      Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

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      • Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
        Elitness is personal there is no standard, but that wasn't my argument. My argument was that it's possible to separate a players performance from one season to the next. IMO in 2011 Eli played on an elite level. For his career Eli has been above average but not great or elite.
        Gotcha
        Mood: WOOF!

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        • The word elite gets thrown around to easily. Eli is a guy that will be a top ten one year and fall out the next. Being in the top ten last year you could make the argument of where he stands in that top ten. Now this year he was out of that top ten. People can make all the excuses they want, by he was not as good this year as he was in 2011. The same way he was much better in 2011 than he was in 2010.

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          • Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
            He wasn't elite in any year before 2011 either. To say that his stats this year were due to Nicks being hurt would be less than honest. There were several games this year where he was just not on his game and that has been his MO throughout his career.
            I think Nicks had a lot more to do with Eli's year than you're willing to admit. You can't expect any QB to lose a player like that and not suffer a statistical drop off. I mean just look at Eli's performance for the one game that Nicks played like himself. What was it 4 TDs in the 4th quarter against Tampa?
            #80

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            • Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, and Brees can work with anyone. That is why they are the elite. They lose players and stay consistent.

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              • Originally posted by Buddy333 View Post
                Rodgers, Brady, Peyton, and Brees can work with anyone. That is why they are the elite. They lose players and stay consistent.
                Hmmm...none of the guys you mentioned won 2 SB with 2 completely different groups of WR and TE's.

                Now I'm not sure how you are going to define "work with anyone", but I am pretty sure it won't have anything to do with winning the ultimate prize in football.
                Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

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                • Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
                  Discarding multiple Super Bowl wins and multiple Super Bowl MVPs, when evaluating the quality of an NFL QBs performances over the course of his career may be a convenient way to insist upon your points in this debate, but it is a convenience of assumption not shared by most sports pundits, players, ex players, coaches, and fans.

                  Of course football is the ultimate team sport, so of course championships are won--or lost--as a result of the team's performance as a whole.

                  But fact that applies to every single game a QB plays in throughout his career, not just championship games. So I find it curious when you and all those who share your thinking on this, that when debating a QB's "eliteness", that his "individual" stats ("individual" is even questionable since every QB requires receivers to catch a QB's passes in order to produce his stats) seem to weigh more heavily in your opinion for designating a specific QB "elite" than do the facts of championship)s) won by said QB and his team.

                  It occurs to me now that assuming that perspective of yours regarding the "eliteness" of a given QB, the term really is silly and entirely meaningless.

                  Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories. After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

                  Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans.

                  (And before the overused "So Marino was not elite and is not deserving of his HOF award?", or "I guess you think Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jim Plunkett were elite and should be in the HOF?" is raised, these are all examples of the few exceptions that prove the rule). Marino and Kelly clearly achieved during their careers what very few, if any, pro QBs ever did during theirs, in spite of not winning a SB. Dilfer, Johnson, Plunkett were clearly mediocre QBs--just look at their career stats, team wins, etc--who were in the right place at the right time to be on a SB winner. This happens, but rearely enough to be exceptions.

                  With that in mind, the only truly elite active QBs are Brady followed by Peyton Manning, who are the only ones who have consistently put up superlative passing stats and superlative number of post season appearances and wins throughout their careers (13 and 15 years, respectively, including a missed season for each). Brady out shines Peyton overall in this regard, although Peyton is a unique player and QB regardless of number of SB wins, thus belongs in the same sentence as Brady.

                  Roethlisberger has wins, post season wins including 2 SBs, and good passing stats overall, and is legitimately in the discussion, but is not a consensus fan favorite to be called elite.

                  But Brees (in the league only 2 fewer years than Brady, 4 fewer than Peyton), and Rodgers really are not legitimately in this category yet. How can they be? They both have terrific passing stats, and overall good win-loss records, but still have each won only 1 SB to go with those passing stats.

                  Since Rodgers is in his prime (and in terms of age and time in the NFL is only 1 year less than Roethlisberger and Eli), it can be argued he will in all likelihood, along with Peyton, come in second to Brady in terms of his combination of passing stats and post season appearances and wins after his career is done.

                  In light of all this, I find a bit perplexing the insistence on the part of those Giants fans who focus entirely upon Eli's passing stats--which, so far in his career are mostly very good but not close to the superlative level of Brady, Peyton, Brees and Rodgers' (so far)--while appearing to diminish Eli's post season accomplishments which compare very favorably to Peyton, Roethlisberger, Brees, Rodgers, and even Brady over the course of the past 6 Super Bowl seasons of all these QBs.

                  I see QBs Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers consistently considered as the consensus "elite" QBs. There is a mixed opinion about Roethlisberger being considered elite. And there is mixed opinion even among Giants fans about Eli being considered elite.

                  And of these consensus elite QBs in the last 12 years, Brady has appeared in five Super Bowls winning 3 SBs (thus making him a slam-dunk All World, guaranteed HOF QB)

                  Roethlisberger has 2-1 Super Bowl record, Peyton is 1-1. Brees is 1-0 and Rodgers is 1-0 in the Super Bowl.

                  Eli is 2-0 in Super Bowl appearances in his 9 year career so far, with at least as many years remaining in his career as Roethlisberger, Rodgers and Brees, and likely several more years remaining than Peyton and Brady. And the fact that in 46 years, there have been only FIVE QBs who have been awarded multiple Super Bowl MVP awards--Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Tom Brady and Eli--is no small accomplishment. Three of the other four are in the HOF, and the 4th is guaranteed to be elected first ballot HOF when eligible for induction.

                  Yet Eli is considered by many Giants fans as not deserving of the rather vague, very subjective, and ultimately meaningless term "elite QB".

                  It's just a Strange debate to have among Giants fans in particular (ie, I wouldn't expect Cowboys, Eagles, Redskins fans to concede any accolades to a Giants QB, for example)..
                  Let me say this. Is it possible that Eli is also an "exception" along with Plunkett and Dilfer? Granted, Eli's on a whole another level, but he's definitely not a unanimous "top" QB choice. Eli has the rings, but not the stats. Much better stats then those other jokers for sure, but not exactly great ones compared to his peers. I'd imagine you'd need both the rings and the stats to fit among the top. I'm just throwing it out there.

                  Eli's script is still being written. Brees, Brady, Peyton's books have almost been finished. We all know what they've done. To be fair, the term "elite" favors the QBs that have the most experience. Eli's in his prime. It's ok for him not to be considered "elite".

                  FYI, Ben's numbers blows Eli's out of the water. You can't take the stats at face value. Normalize it per attempt, and you'll see. Ben and Rivers have a season and sometimes a season and a half fewer attempts then Eli does. And yet, they have the same numbers. When it comes down to the numbers game, Eli will lose every time.

                  That being said, Eli's numbers absolutely are in line with Brees and Brady. In 2011 when Eli had that amazing season, that's the exact same years Brady and Brees exploded also. Imagine my excitement (along with everyone elses). Then in 2012, we have ... well ... the old Eli maybe even worse. Overall he had decent numbers, but he had some really bad performances to go with some good ones. I mean, really bad.

                  Eli has the 2 SB wins, but not the respect - even among Giants fans. I'm not trying to convince you, but merely to get you to think. Maybe, that "eliteness" is a lot more then just SB wins? Maybe the regular season counts? Maybe you need the numbers? Maybe you need consistency? Let's be honest here. Eli hasn't had many convincing seasons - which is why he'll always be such an enigma. He's so inconsistent, no one knows what to make of the guy. And be coined "elite" is all perception. When people don't know what to make of you. We'll, you're not going to be seen that way.
                  http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                  http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                  http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                  Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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                  • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                    Ok. Let me put it this way. When Marino, Elway, and Kelly were playing in their primes, Aikman and Young were NOT elite. However, when Marino Elway and Kelly were gone or over the hill, Aikman and Young became elite. It's might be just me, but i don't use the term elite loosely.

                    It absolutely is a numbers game.
                    Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
                    That's just not true. Aikmen had 3 rings before Elway got his first. Aikmen also beat Jim Kelly in the SB twice. Steve Young also got his ring before Elway got his. And when Marino retired Aikman had 10 years in the league already, and 3 championships.

                    Young and Aikman were "elite" QB's long before these guys were over the hill.
                    Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
                    I'm not saying they were better, I am just saying they were also elite/superstars at the same time as the guys you mentioned. I am not trying to rank the QBs in any order, nor am I trying to convince anyone that Eli is elite. I am just saying you can have a bunch of QBs that are considered elite at the same time.
                    For one, i don't see elite and superstar as the same level. But that's neither here nor there. But when Marino, Kelly, and Elway ruled the air ways, no one thought Aikman and Young were at their level - at that point in time.

                    My bad, i didn't mean to use the word "better" in my previous post.

                    Ultimately, i just think our definition of "elite" is different. My definition of elite is much more selective.
                    Last edited by gumby74; 02-17-2013, 12:07 AM.
                    http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                    http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                    Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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                    • NEXT. . . . . . . . .there will be those on the GIANTS' message boards defending Jaworski!!!!!!!! Some of you talk about overreaction, but I feel like the responses to the so-called overreaction, is indeed overreaction. I don't have anything against Herm but he made an opinionated statement, which caused an opinionated response from some GIANTS' FANS, on the NY GIANTS MESSAGE BOARDS.

                      Oh, and by the way. . . . . .did I mention MESSAGE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!

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                      • Regardless of their supporting cast, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Peyton will put up consistently good(for them)numbers again this year. If you ask Jint fans what kind of numbers Eli will put up this year the answer in many, many instances will be, depends on WHICH Eli shows up.

                        And please don't start with the injury to Nicks. Half of Rodger's receiving corps was injured for a whole season and he did not skip a beat on the way to the Super Bowl three years ago.

                        As far as Herm's opinion is concerned I don't understand the rationale of attacking him. If he had made the same comment about a different QB we would be agreeing it was descriptive, colorful and funny. In other words we are reponding in typical homerish fashion to his comment by attacking him.

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                        • Originally posted by Breezely View Post
                          NEXT. . . . . . . . .there will be those on the GIANTS' message boards defending Jaworski!!!!!!!! Some of you talk about overreaction, but I feel like the responses to the so-called overreaction, is indeed overreaction. I don't have anything against Herm but he made an opinionated statement, which caused an opinionated response from some GIANTS' FANS, on the NY GIANTS MESSAGE BOARDS.

                          Oh, and by the way. . . . . .did I mention MESSAGE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!
                          My use of the word "overreaction" isn't referring to those who make a strong case that Herm Edwards is wrong. I think he clearly is. I also think the "kids table" comment makes no sense at all.
                          The "overreaction" is the personal attacking of Edwards. Its also the expressed notion that since he had a sub .500 record as a HC, he is somehow unqualified to even comment on players in today's game. Which is complete nonsense. And that a bunch of posters on our MB are somehow better qualified to make these comments.
                          And by the way...if you look at the first page of the thread, I predicted it would happen. I didn't just criticize after I read all these silly posts.
                          So I am not defending Herm Edwards. I would not defend anyone who made these comments about our QB, because they are wrong for one thing. But I do defend the fact that Herm Edwards, Ron Jaworski, Dieon Sanders, Kurt Warner or any other former NFL players are actually uniquely qualified to comment on these thing, even if we strongly disagree with what they said. AND that they aren't scumbags for saying it.
                          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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                          • Originally posted by Breezely View Post
                            NEXT. . . . . . . . .there will be those on the GIANTS' message boards defending Jaworski!!!!!!!! Some of you talk about overreaction, but I feel like the responses to the so-called overreaction, is indeed overreaction. I don't have anything against Herm but he made an opinionated statement, which caused an opinionated response from some GIANTS' FANS, on the NY GIANTS MESSAGE BOARDS.

                            Oh, and by the way. . . . . .did I mention MESSAGE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!
                            Hands down...Jaws is the sharpest and most knowledgeable and my #1 choice to listen comment on a game.

                            Not saying he's always right, but he always does his research and film study.
                            Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

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                            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                              Its also the expressed notion that since he had a sub .500 record as a HC, he is somehow unqualified to even comment on players in today's game. Which is complete nonsense. And that a bunch of posters on our MB are somehow better qualified to make these comments.
                              I would not defend anyone who made these comments about our QB, because they are wrong for one thing. But I do defend the fact that Herm Edwards, Ron Jaworski, Dieon Sanders, Kurt Warner or any other former NFL players are actually uniquely qualified to comment on these thing, even if we strongly disagree with what they said. AND that they aren't scumbags for saying it.
                              OK...we need to come to terms here:

                              Herm and Jaws pretty much have opposite opinions of Eli.
                              Both can't be right
                              But both are qualified to give their opinions based on the fact that both have intimate knowledge of football.

                              No one should object to this. Neither you nor I are saying they are right, we are just saying that they are qualified to give an opinion.
                              Right or wrong, they have the background to make an informed opinion*.

                              Now...we differ in the fact that Herm was a miserable coach being a qualification, but the concept holds up without it.





                              *we both have so far ignored the fact that all of these guys have biases and personal, emotional reactions, and some times their opinions are colored by them.
                              Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

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                              • The problem is consistency. The elite QB's put up great numbers no matter who they throw to.

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