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  • The Giants beat Green Bay twice in their own house but it was against Favre and then Rodgers. Also, no QB beats another QB unless they play defense.

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    • Originally posted by Buddy333 View Post
      The Giants beat Green Bay twice in their own house but it was against Favre and then Rodgers. Also, no QB beats another QB unless they play defense.
      True, but a QB can out perform another QB in a playoff game. Eli outperformed both Farve and Rodgers in those games.

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      • That's no really fair to say either. They played against different defenses. In both Championship runs the Giants defense was playing great football shutting teams down.

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        • Originally posted by Ntegrase96 View Post
          Fuzzy memory? Aikman, maybe. Young began his NFL career just 3 years after the 83 draft class and 3 years prior to Aikman. And while Moon entered the NFL around the same time as Marino, Kelly and Elway, he played CFL ball before even Montana started his NFL career in '79. You don't have to be drafted together to be in the same generation in my opinion.

          So while the were slightly different in age, with the exception of Montana, they were all veterans playing at a pretty high level in 1992--1994.
          fuzzy memory? maybe.

          Young's first start wasn't until what 1992? He started out with the Washington Federals (yes, i was a big USFL fan). Aikman was also early 90s.

          When Kelly, Marino, Elway were at their peak, Aikman/Young were just beginning. The QB era in the late 80's early 90s was dominated by Kelly, Marino, and Elway. Everyone was an afterthought until they disappeared or began to be over the hill.

          In retrospect, the 90's was pretty much a dead period when it came to QBs. Who knows maybe because everyone was fresh off of memories from Kelly, Marino, and Elway. Everyone who directly followed just didn't come close. Favre, Young, Aikman. Who else am I missing?
          http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
          http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
          http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

          Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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          • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
            fuzzy memory? maybe.

            Young's first start wasn't until what 1992? He started out with the Washington Federals (yes, i was a big USFL fan). Aikman was also early 90s.

            When Kelly, Marino, Elway were at their peak, Aikman/Young were just beginning. The QB era in the late 80's early 90s was dominated by Kelly, Marino, and Elway. Everyone was an afterthought until they disappeared or began to be over the hill.

            In retrospect, the 90's was pretty much a dead period when it came to QBs. Who knows maybe because everyone was fresh off of memories from Kelly, Marino, and Elway. Everyone who directly followed just didn't come close. Favre, Young, Aikman. Who else am I missing?
            If you look at the years I listed they all played at a very high level. All I was saying if you look at those year, an argument can be made that there was 7 "elite QB's" in the league. Was each as good as the other? No, but does that make the others, not elite? Not in my opinion. So while Brady, Peyton, and Rodgers may be the top three, does that mean Brees, Eli, and Ben aren't elite? Nt in my opinion.

            But the key word is opinion. Nobody is wrong here, because nobody is "the deciding" factor on what exactly is the definition of "elite".
            #80

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            • Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
              I agree about with your generation point, but if you look at the three years I listed, they were all putting up comparable stats, with the exception of Montana as he was pretty much at the end of the road, but I wasn't about to leave Joe Montana off the list. So for that time period I do think its fair to say that there were 7 "elite" quarterbacks in the league. I believe Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers are not in the same "generation", but they are both certainly elite QB's at this current time.

              Again, it all depends on a persons definition of elite.
              So what word do you have for "best of the best"? Besides Top Gun. What word would you use for a group of people that stand out so much so far their peer group, that the rest don't compare? Top 7 is in 60-70th% percentile mind you. How could that possibly be the best of the best. So in your mind, what is above elite?
              http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
              http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
              http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

              Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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              • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                So what word do you have for "best of the best"? Besides Top Gun. What word would you use for a group of people that stand out so much so far their peer group, that the rest don't compare? Top 7 is in 60-70th% percentile mind you. How could that possibly be the best of the best. So in your mind, what is above elite?
                Well that is two different questions. Who is the best QB in the league? Or Who are the elite QBs in the league.
                If there are 8 QBs in the league that have the stats, are winners, and can dominate most defenses, then that's what you have.

                It's unfair to put a cap on how many QB's you can call elite.

                It's like saying, sorry Eli, I know you threw for 4800 yards and 25 TD's, and two SB MVPs but we already have 4 guys that are slightly better so you can't be elite. You're just average.

                That doesn't make sense.
                #80

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                • Originally posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
                  Well that is two different questions. Who is the best QB in the league? Or Who are the elite QBs in the league.
                  If there are 8 QBs in the league that have the stats, are winners, and can dominate most defenses, then that's what you have.

                  It's unfair to put a cap on how many QB's you can call elite.

                  It's like saying, sorry Eli, I know you threw for 4800 yards and 25 TD's, and two SB MVPs but we already have 4 guys that are slightly better so you can't be elite. You're just average.

                  That doesn't make sense.

                  Actually it kind of does. It just kind of depends on what the word 'elite' means to you. To me, there is always going to be a ranking system... an obvious best, his equal or runner up and maybe a guy knocking on the door.

                  I don't think you have to call the next few guys after that 'average'. Clearly they're better than average, but that doesn't mean they're elite. Not using anyone in particular, just trying to explain what Elite means to me.

                  Of course, the literal definition just indicates a group of people who are considered to be the best in some setting or another... not the best of the best. So my thinking is askew.

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                  • Originally posted by Ntegrase96 View Post
                    Actually it kind of does. It just kind of depends on what the word 'elite' means to you. To me, there is always going to be a ranking system... an obvious best, his equal or runner up and maybe a guy knocking on the door.

                    I don't think you have to call the next few guys after that 'average'. Clearly they're better than average, but that doesn't mean they're elite. Not using anyone in particular, just trying to explain what Elite means to me.

                    Of course, the literal definition just indicates a group of people who are considered to be the best in some setting or another... not the best of the best. So my thinking is askew.
                    Again, it's all about how each person perceives the word elite.

                    One thing is clear on these boards. Those that love Eli will draw the line in the sand that includes him in the "elite" catagory, and those that expect more from Eli will draw the line in the sand with him on the outside looking in. It is a debate that will probably continue until well after he does or does not get into the HOF.
                    #80

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                    • Originally posted by Buddy333 View Post
                      That's no really fair to say either. They played against different defenses. In both Championship runs the Giants defense was playing great football shutting teams down.
                      I 100% get what you are saying here and it is logical but itís just not the way people look at it. Qb's can't play against the same defense so they are judged on their individual performances. Obviously, there are extenuating circumstances where a defense is head and shoulders above another but in regards to 2011season, the Giants defense was close to the bottom in the league (They became more stout in the playoffs).

                      Also, Rodgers was definitely off his game that day. He was missing throws that he usually nails and made a couple of poor decisions. Now, Rodgers receivers also played poorly in this game but the one sided officiating also helped the Packers out (I almost broke my brothers brand new $6,500 TV because I was angry with that crap). All in all, I think it would be a fair assessment to say Manning outperformed Rodgers in the Playoffs.

                      In regards to the Giants Super bowl run in 2007, I think your position has greater weight. Manning wasn't fully developed at the time and the Giants defense that year was beastly. To tell you the truth, I would probably have to rewatch the game to give an accurate assessment of the QB play.

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                      • Still can not say for sure because the can't play he same defense. The Green Bay defense was horrible. That's not to take away from a great win, but the last three times these two teams met the Giants have scored over 100 points. It is fair to say that Eli beat on a defense and Rodgers was stopped by a defense.

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                        • Originally posted by Ntegrase96 View Post
                          Actually it kind of does. It just kind of depends on what the word 'elite' means to you. To me, there is always going to be a ranking system... an obvious best, his equal or runner up and maybe a guy knocking on the door.

                          I don't think you have to call the next few guys after that 'average'. Clearly they're better than average, but that doesn't mean they're elite. Not using anyone in particular, just trying to explain what Elite means to me.

                          Of course, the literal definition just indicates a group of people who are considered to be the best in some setting or another... not the best of the best. So my thinking is askew.
                          "Of course, the literal definition just indicates a group of people who are considered to be the best in some setting or another... not the best of the best."

                          You just provided the best and most logical reason why many fans (and many players and ex-players in recent years, actually) are justifiable in their placing of Eli in the current "elite QB" category.

                          Believing that Eli is part of a "group of people (NFL QBs) who are considered to be the best" in the "some setting (aka the NFL) or another" is a reasonable belief, don't you think?

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                          • ďHe can sit at the kids table, but he canít order from the menuĒ.
                            ......

                            What the hell does that even mean? Elite players order from the kids menu, but non-Elite players order from the adult?

                            Or that Eli is elite enough to sit with the elite "kids", just not elite enough to order his own food? I.. just... what?

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                            • Originally posted by Ntegrase96 View Post
                              Actually it kind of does. It just kind of depends on what the word 'elite' means to you. To me, there is always going to be a ranking system... an obvious best, his equal or runner up and maybe a guy knocking on the door.

                              I don't think you have to call the next few guys after that 'average'. Clearly they're better than average, but that doesn't mean they're elite. Not using anyone in particular, just trying to explain what Elite means to me.

                              Of course, the literal definition just indicates a group of people who are considered to be the best in some setting or another... not the best of the best. So my thinking is askew.
                              That's exactly where I'm coming from. Without a ranking system, terms like "good", bad", "elite" have no meaning.

                              Coming from an armed forces point of view, you have the grunts in the army, then the navy, then the seals, then seal team 7. To mean, Seal team 7 is elite or best of the best. But just a navy seal isn't - although it's still freaking awesome.

                              It so happens to happens that maybe my definition of "elite" is not as broad as others. When 7 members out of 32 are termed elite, something just doesn't sit right.
                              http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                              http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                              http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                              Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                                It so happens to happens that maybe my definition of "elite" is not as broad as others. When 7 members out of 32 are termed elite, something just doesn't sit right.
                                But that goes back to my previous point. Take the early '90s when you have 7 future HOF's playing. Who in the group do you say is good but not elite. Do you say sorry Aikman and Young, even though you're both going to the hall of fame, we can't call you elite because then we would have too many elite QB's.
                                We'll call you elite when some of the older guys retire and there is more room for you?
                                #80

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