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Watching Kurt Warner a football life

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
    Its a good point.
    But my real point here was a response to a poster who suggested that 2004 Eli was somehow better than Warner. Now Eli has certainly developed into a fine player, but 2004 Eli was absolutely horrible. There was already talk about Eli being a bust after the Baltimore game (which may have been the worst performance by a Giants QB ever).

    Its just another example of how some of these folks take this Eli thing way too far.
    I didn't say he was better than Warner in 04 and the record would suggest it. If you read my post, clearly I was saying Eli was already better than Warner in different aspect of the QB position. He was able to take less sacks, call audibles at the right time, set up protection better etc.

    When the Giants made the change to Eli, Kurt was already a lost cause by that time. He was hearing footsteps on every dropback and had lost the team by then. They probably would've been 1-6 with him instead of Eli the way he was playing.

    Your reading comprehension skills are just as bad as Kurt's ability to throw away the ball.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by EliDaMANning View Post
      I didn't say he was better than Warner in 04 and the record would suggest it. If you read my post, clearly I was saying Eli was already better than Warner in different aspect of the QB position. He was able to take less sacks, call audibles at the right time, set up protection better etc.

      When the Giants made the change to Eli, Kurt was already a lost cause by that time. He was hearing footsteps on every dropback and had lost the team by then. They probably would've been 1-6 with him instead of Eli the way he was playing.

      Your reading comprehension skills are just as bad as Kurt's ability to throw away the ball.
      Fight with yourself. I'm not biting.
      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by GentleGiant View Post
        Makes me hate tiki barber even more. Dirtbag acts like he would rather have had Warner over Eli. I do respect Warner for not wanting to start a controversery with Eli. Still wont forgive him for dissing Eli.
        There is no part of this that I don't disagree with.

        1) Tiki naturally wanted a seasoned and wily vet over a rookie. If he was thinking that he was nearing the end of his career, why wouldn't he want the guy whom was most ready to play?
        2) Warner is a better man than Collins, and a lot of other vets. Collins wanted out because he didn't want to babysit Eli; Warner knew the deal ahead of time and still played his guts out.
        3) the HOF line from Warner was horrible timing - guy just won his second MVP, again in dramatic fashion - it was Eli's moment. At best, he should have been more delicate. To me, the line felt more like he was trying to shore up his own case for the hall, and not a shot at Eli per se.
        Besides, he did kinda walk it back that same conversation - I think he realized it was bad to timing as soon as he said it.
        Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Delicreep View Post
          There is no part of this that I don't disagree with.

          1) Tiki naturally wanted a seasoned and wily vet over a rookie. If he was thinking that he was nearing the end of his career, why wouldn't he want the guy whom was most ready to play?
          2) Warner is a better man than Collins, and a lot of other vets. Collins wanted out because he didn't want to babysit Eli; Warner knew the deal ahead of time and still played his guts out.
          3) the HOF line from Warner was horrible timing - guy just won his second MVP, again in dramatic fashion - it was Eli's moment. At best, he should have been more delicate. To me, the line felt more like he was trying to shore up his own case for the hall, and not a shot at Eli per se.
          Besides, he did kinda walk it back that same conversation - I think he realized it was bad to timing as soon as he said it.
          Give me a player who wants to start and play instead of "babysitting" another player any day of the week.
          Collins went on to play some very good football for several years after leaving us.

          Why on earth would you conclude that one guy is a "better man" than another because he wants to play football., and not just accept a role as second fiddle.
          I don't get your point at all.
          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Its a good point.
            But my real point here was a response to a poster who suggested that 2004 Eli was somehow better than Warner. Now Eli has certainly developed into a fine player, but 2004 Eli was absolutely horrible. There was already talk about Eli being a bust after the Baltimore game (which may have been the worst performance by a Giants QB ever).

            Its just another example of how some of these folks take this Eli thing way too far.
            You're correct about Eli having an atrocious game vs the Ravens, with only 27 (or close) passing yards, and around 30%completion rate.

            On the other hand, the very next week, against the 12-1 eventual SB Champion Steelers, Eli had a very good game--out performing Roethlisberger (not in yards but in completion rate, TDs and TD/Int ratio, and even outran the "mobile" Ben), barely losing to them by 3 points. Followed by a decent game vs Bengals, losing by a couple points, and finishing the season the next week with a win vs Cowboys.

            Point is, Eli--as poorly as he appeared to perform his rookie year of 7 starts--already was revealing his ability to learn from mistakes, his ability to improve from one game to the next, and his now-established ability to shake off a poor performance and follow with a good-to-great performance the next game.

            Would that be an example of my taking "this Eli thing" too far?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
              You're correct about Eli having an atrocious game vs the Ravens, with only 27 (or close) passing yards, and around 30%completion rate.

              On the other hand, the very next week, against the 12-1 eventual SB Champion Steelers, Eli had a very good game--out performing Roethlisberger (not in yards but in completion rate, TDs and TD/Int ratio, and even outran the "mobile" Ben), barely losing to them by 3 points. Followed by a decent game vs Bengals, losing by a couple points, and finishing the season the next week with a win vs Cowboys.

              Point is, Eli--as poorly as he appeared to perform his rookie year of 7 starts--already was revealing his ability to learn from mistakes, his ability to improve from one game to the next, and his now-established ability to shake off a poor performance and follow with a good-to-great performance the next game.

              Would that be an example of my taking "this Eli thing" too far?
              Not at all. Eli definitely showed flashes. But as a whole, his rookie season was less then stellar - as was expected..
              http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
              http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
              http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

              Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

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              • #37
                Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                thats not true buffyblue. technically, what happened, is right after sb 46, some writers were commenting that the win would solidify a HoF spot when his career ended. they werent saying "eli manning, HOF right now lets vote him in." So, IF warner was actually coming from that perspective, itd be unwarranted, as no one had claimed eli manning was ending his career, and 5 yrs theyd be voting on him, so for warner to then remark about eli not being HoF wasnt based on the premise that he still had to play out his career, it was that the 2 sb mvps and all, werent worthy of a HoF...thats why he backtracked like immediately the next day into a more PC, "he still has his career to finish out" but he had already made it clear he had objected to the notion he was HoF worthy...but to be fair, imho, it coulda been anyone not named kurt warner and he woulda had an issue about their being discussed as HoF and not him, which is what i believe ultimately triggered him to respond in the first place...and fwiw, imho, eli makes the HoF whether he hangs em up tomorrow r plays 10 more yrs and breaks every record...2 sb mvps carry way more weight with the voters than some realize
                I also think Eli makes the HoF of he were to retire now. However, I have no issue with Kurt Warner stating his opinion. He is an analyst and it wasn't like he demeaned Eli.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
                  You're correct about Eli having an atrocious game vs the Ravens, with only 27 (or close) passing yards, and around 30%completion rate.

                  On the other hand, the very next week, against the 12-1 eventual SB Champion Steelers, Eli had a very good game--out performing Roethlisberger (not in yards but in completion rate, TDs and TD/Int ratio, and even outran the "mobile" Ben), barely losing to them by 3 points. Followed by a decent game vs Bengals, losing by a couple points, and finishing the season the next week with a win vs Cowboys.

                  Point is, Eli--as poorly as he appeared to perform his rookie year of 7 starts--already was revealing his ability to learn from mistakes, his ability to improve from one game to the next, and his now-established ability to shake off a poor performance and follow with a good-to-great performance the next game.

                  Would that be an example of my taking "this Eli thing" too far?
                  1. Pittsburgh was NOT the eventual SB winner.
                  2. Eli played better the last 2 weeks. There is no doubt. He played well against Cincy as well. But a poster claimed that the 2004 version of Eli was better than the 2004 version of Warner and I completely disagree.
                  By ANY standard, Warner was a far better QB than Eli in 2004.
                  We were 5-4 vs. 1-6. He had afar better production than Eli.

                  And Ben had 316 yards in that game vs. 182 for Eli and won the game on the road. (if winning counts)
                  Last edited by Morehead State; 02-22-2013, 01:08 PM.
                  Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Once again, MS has devolved this topic in to his usual Eli nonsense.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by EliDaMANning View Post
                      Kurt Warner is whack. He'll go into the HOF but he wasn't even that much better than a rookie Eli while he was in his own prime. As a matter of fact, a rookie Eli was better than a prime Warner in many aspects as a QB. Protection, audibles, pocket awareness etc. Kurt played like a deer in headlights in his final starts as a Giants and my eyes bled just by watching.
                      Really.....
                      Well I didn't write this nor did I do anything to prompt it.
                      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                        Give me a player who wants to start and play instead of "babysitting" another player any day of the week.
                        Collins went on to play some very good football for several years after leaving us.

                        Why on earth would you conclude that one guy is a "better man" than another because he wants to play football., and not just accept a role as second fiddle.
                        I don't get your point at all.
                        Really?

                        OK...no one anywhere on the planet, including Warner and Collins, had any expectation that Eli was going to start game 1 of his first season. It is precisely why they were looking for a vet. But everyone on the planet knew that the Gmen would be looking for any reason to put Eli in.

                        Whoever took that job damn well knew that he was going to have to play lights out to keep that job*.
                        Not "good enough", not "OK", not "passable" - lights out.

                        Takes a strong man to stand there and say "I can do this"
                        Warner did that.
                        Collins would not.

                        Not so much a knock on Collins as a pat on the back to Warner.


                        *And I know that you are fond of pointing out Warner's record with the Giants, but I don't think even Harooni would use the term "lights out". I would have kept him in, as would you, but it kinda proves my point, doesn't it?

                        And I probably should have put "babysitting" in quotes as you did, since it is the exact word Collins used.
                        Last edited by Delicreep; 02-22-2013, 01:36 PM.
                        Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Delicreep View Post
                          Really?

                          OK...no one anywhere on the planet, including Warner and Collins, had any expectation that Eli was going to start game 1 of his first season. It is precisely why they were looking for a vet. But everyone on the planet knew that the Gmen would be looking for any reason to put Eli in.

                          Whoever took that job damn well knew that he was going to have to play lights out to keep that job*.
                          Not "good enough", not "OK", not "passable" - lights out.

                          Takes a strong man to stand there and say "I can do this"
                          Warner did that.
                          Collins would not.

                          Not so much a knock on Collins as a pat on the back to Warner.


                          *And I know that you are fond of pointing out Warner's record with the Giants, but I don't think even Harooni would use the term "lights out". I would have kept him in, as would you, but it kinda proves my point, doesn't it?
                          Who used the term "lights out"?

                          And Ernie called Collins into his office, thold him he had to take a pay cut. All this right after they traded the store for Eli. If I'm a QB who still thinks he can play...I say release me.
                          And it has nothing to do with not being a "better man".
                          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                            Who used the term "lights out"?

                            And Ernie called Collins into his office, thold him he had to take a pay cut. All this right after they traded the store for Eli. If I'm a QB who still thinks he can play...I say release me.
                            And it has nothing to do with not being a "better man".
                            ummm...I used the term "lights out". As in the only way Collins/Warner was going to keep that job was to play lights out.
                            Every single day I log onto this message board thinking i've seen it all, every single day I am wrong...NYGiants2120

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                              1. Pittsburgh was NOT the eventual SB winner.
                              2. Eli played better the last 2 weeks. There is no doubt. He played well against Cincy as well. But a poster claimed that the 2004 version of Eli was better than the 2004 version of Warner and I completely disagree.
                              By ANY standard, Warner was a far better QB than Eli in 2004.
                              We were 5-4 vs. 1-6. He had afar better production than Eli.

                              And Ben had 316 yards in that game vs. 182 for Eli and won the game on the road. (if winning counts)
                              Well, the Steelers were the eventual SB winner. It just took another season to do so (ok, I got a little ahead of myself in my enthusiasm). But they were a 12-1 team when they played us that year, so point is basically the same.

                              I agree with your point about the 2004 Eli vs Warner comparison. That comment was a stretch, to say the least, and as such, you'll noticed I didn't bother to even address that.

                              And in my post I acknowledged Ben had more yards than Eli, but it is also true that Eli was more efficient (higher comp %, more TDs, more TDs-to-int ratio).
                              My point--besides my impulse to challenge your impulse to critique Eli at every opportunity--is that the Ravens game, in the grand scheme of Eli's rookie season and in the grand scheme of his career, meant little-to-nothing regarding his status as QB,

                              He was less than stellar his rookie season. But he also showed flashes--as you acknowledge--of what was to come, during his rookie year.

                              Sure, there were plenty of fans (maybe even including yourself) who were already freaking out about Eli's draft selection at that early stage. For that matter, right up until SB XLVI (and even now, absurdly enough, there are some), plenty of Giants fans who also criticized Eli's "body language", his facial expressions, his running out the play clock, his physique, what he ate for lunch, etc, etc. Meant nothing then, means nothing now.

                              There just happens to be a lot of fans these days who believe a superior QB should look only a certain way, and should throw for more yards than anyone else, in order to be considered a great QB in the NFL. I'm not accusing you, MS, of being such a fan, I'm succumbing to a rant impulse. I'll stop in a second.

                              At the risk of everyone taking this the wrong way, have these fans actually seen Montana? He certainly did not "look" like a pro QB. Even he admitted he was no physical specimen; Jerry Rice used to tease him about his skinny legs. Yet he was a true "gamer", was fearless in the most adverse situations, was blessed with self confidence and the uncanny ability to adjust on the fly.

                              Though not quite as blessed as Joe, Simms had many of those qualities, only without WRs of the talent of Rice, Taylor. The best example of Simms showing those qualities was in the biggest game of his life.

                              And though Eli is quite different from Montana of course, and he doesn't have all the trophies and many other attributes of him, he does show some of those qualities--his "gamer" abilities being foremost among them.

                              That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'm surprised that people expected Kurt to shut his mouth when his job was given to Eli. This is a guy who had been to the super bowl twice, won once, and went a third time after his stint here. Kurt thought(and rightfully so) that when he came here that he would be leading the offense for years to come, he wasn't under the impression that his job would consist of mentoring the new guy from the sidelines. Kurt most certainly was a better player than Eli was back in '04 so I can completely understand where he is coming from.

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