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This is what separates Victor Cruz from Wes Welker

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  • Originally posted by Drez View Post
    Barber's issue was a mechanical one, though, not a mental one. Cruz, even off the field, has shown lapses in focus (his academic troubles, etc.). Sure the coaches can do what they can, and hopefully that will help cut down on the problem, but there's only so much they can do.
    I'm thinking part of Tiki's problem was his concentration as well. But we can agree to disagree.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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    • Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
      I'm thinking part of Tiki's problem was his concentration as well. But we can agree to disagree.
      I'm sure some of it was, but it was mostly he was keeping the ball away from his body when facing contact (I suppose it can be argued if that, in and of itself, is a mental or mechanical issue).

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      • Originally posted by Drez View Post
        I'm sure some of it was, but it was mostly he was keeping the ball away from his body when facing contact (I suppose it can be argued if that, in and of itself, is a mental or mechanical issue).
        I think it's both most of the time. But Cruz needs to get his problem under control
        “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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        • Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
          I think it's both most of the time. But Cruz needs to get his problem under control
          On that there is no disagreement.

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          • Originally posted by Drez View Post
            I'm sure some of it was, but it was mostly he was keeping the ball away from his body when facing contact (I suppose it can be argued if that, in and of itself, is a mental or mechanical issue).
            are u discussing cruz's drops? bc thats an inaccurate statement imo if it is. most of cruz's drops, the ball actually gets onto cruz's body and bounces off. when the ball hit his hands, he almost always is holding on.

            and the reason, or part of the reason ( i dont dispute ur comments/points about why, just the how of the drops) is bc he focuses his concentration on the defender from the ball too early. he'll look off looking the ball in to look upfield (or whichever direction depending on defender and location of pass)....

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            • Originally posted by RoanokeFan View Post
              I seem to recall a very talented RB named Tiki Barber who was a fumbling machine learning to not be one through coaching.

              Call me the eternal optimist, but I believe people can learn and improve. Cruz has had pretty good positive numbers for the two years he's played. He has been Eli's most productive receiver. Imagine if he can cut his drops in half?

              Not uncoachable with the qualifier "per se" = uncoachable
              pretty good? cruz's 2 yr statistical output is amazing when really studied. i think most of us, I know I did, kinda forgot/dismissed just how much success he has had from a statistical viewpoint. Now I know the merits of stats and their importance can be debated for eternity. I merely mean in a "compare Cruz's numbers to other wr's in the league and see who he stacks up against", not in a how the stats were achieved mindset, but just solely the #s...damn impressive, doubt we see another 2 yrs like that from a giants wr ever again...

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              • Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                are u discussing cruz's drops? bc thats an inaccurate statement imo if it is. most of cruz's drops, the ball actually gets onto cruz's body and bounces off. when the ball hit his hands, he almost always is holding on.

                and the reason, or part of the reason ( i dont dispute ur comments/points about why, just the how of the drops) is bc he focuses his concentration on the defender from the ball too early. he'll look off looking the ball in to look upfield (or whichever direction depending on defender and location of pass)....
                No, that was in reference to Tiki's fumbles. A good number of Cruz' drops are simple lapses of focus where he tries making a move before securing the ball.

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                • Originally posted by Drez View Post
                  No, that was in reference to Tiki's fumbles. A good number of Cruz' drops are simple lapses of focus where he tries making a move before securing the ball.
                  ok. i thought i jumped in without understanding ur exact premise. my bad.

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                  • Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                    pretty good? cruz's 2 yr statistical output is amazing when really studied. i think most of us, I know I did, kinda forgot/dismissed just how much success he has had from a statistical viewpoint. Now I know the merits of stats and their importance can be debated for eternity. I merely mean in a "compare Cruz's numbers to other wr's in the league and see who he stacks up against", not in a how the stats were achieved mindset, but just solely the #s...damn impressive, doubt we see another 2 yrs like that from a giants wr ever again...
                    I understate most of the time
                    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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                    • Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
                      ok. i thought i jumped in without understanding ur exact premise. my bad.
                      It's all good. At least you asked if I was talking about Cruz or not.
                      Last edited by Drez; 04-09-2013, 09:35 PM.

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                      • I think that Cruz has better big-playmaking ability, but Welker is an awesome slot receiver as well. I would have been happy with Wes for 2 years if the Giants had signed him thinking that they can't keep Cruz long term.

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                        • Originally posted by JJC7301 View Post
                          I think that Cruz has better big-playmaking ability, but Welker is an awesome slot receiver as well. I would have been happy with Wes for 2 years if the Giants had signed him thinking that they can't keep Cruz long term.
                          So cruz came into the league older then most, so I guess he figures this is is one and only shot at a payday. If he signs a 3 or 4 year deal, he is not going to get a second big one in this 30s. Welker has had solid seasons season after season, he would be great on the giants because the giants are a team about execution. I think Welker would be like steve smith, mr 3rd down. Cruz is not really a reliable move the chains third down target, he is more of a hybrid deep threat home run hitter. In that regard I think we would be better with welker from a consistency standpoint.

                          Cruz just wants to much money, he had a 1000 yard season, it would be a mistake to tie up all this money in him. If he gets injured we are toast.
                          Just remember Kevin Love makes more money then OBJ, and OBJ also dunks better.

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                          • Originally posted by appodictic View Post
                            So cruz came into the league older then most, so I guess he figures this is is one and only shot at a payday. If he signs a 3 or 4 year deal, he is not going to get a second big one in this 30s. Welker has had solid seasons season after season, he would be great on the giants because the giants are a team about execution. I think Welker would be like steve smith, mr 3rd down. Cruz is not really a reliable move the chains third down target, he is more of a hybrid deep threat home run hitter. In that regard I think we would be better with welker from a consistency standpoint.

                            Cruz just wants to much money, he had a 1000 yard season, it would be a mistake to tie up all this money in him. If he gets injured we are toast.
                            How about we let Jerry Reese worry about what's "too much" since we don't have a clue.
                            “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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                            • Originally posted by Drez View Post
                              Not that he's uncoachable, per se, but just prone to lapses in focus.
                              Eh, I don't think that his drops are due to a lack of focus . . . . more likely a focus on where he's going to run after the catch instead of focusing on just making the catch. To me, that's different than a "lack of focus". More like just focusing on the wrong thing for a split second.
                              Last edited by TCHOF; 04-10-2013, 06:56 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
                                Eh, I don't think that his drops are due to a lack of focus . . . . more likely a focus on where he's going to run after the catch instead of focusing on just making the catch. To me, that's different than a "lack of focus"
                                I think he uses that split second look to see where he needs to shift, juke, etc.and sometimes that's enough to "lose the ball." It is a problem he needs to address, but with all of his drops, he's still been Eli's most productive receiver for two years now.
                                “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1

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