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  • #31
    Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
    If Randle/Murphy comes through at the 3WR spot this could be our best year yet. Eli, Cruz, and Nicks are givens. If healthy, I know what they will do- money in the bank, but it's that 3rd receiving option that makes us lethal on offense; and if we can run just average, we will be a force.
    I think Randle could have a huge year. That's why I'm not as obsessed with the Cruz situation as some here.
    But this is the season for the offense to shine. That's why I've been talking up dealing with the O line first this off season.
    Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      Your original point was that "Aikman had Irvin, Montana had Rice etc.....
      Then you said that great QB's "usually" have great WR's. Well Tom Brady is clearly an exception. Because he had Randy Moss for a tad over 2 seasons.
      And while he had the one spectacular season, if you look at his other full season with Randy Moss (2009) it was far less productive than any of the 3 seasons he's had since.
      Brady would be seem to be an exception but the caveat is that his best year by far was the one of the 2 years he had a great WR. So Brady doesn't contradict my point. As great as he has been his year with Moss was proof that he would have even more effective with better WRs.

      All of this supports my initial claim that that in most cases great QBs play with stellar receiving talent. My main point, if you can remember, was to refute the idea that a great way to see if a QB is great is by taking away his best/#1 WR.

      There are exceptions, you can argue Brady is one, what you can't dispute is the fact that Brady or any QB would be better with a great WR.
      Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
        Brady would be seem to be an exception but the caveat is that his best year by far was the one of the 2 years he had a great WR. So Brady doesn't contradict my point. As great as he has been his year with Moss was proof that he would have even more effective with better WRs.

        All of this supports my initial claim that that in most cases great QBs play with stellar receiving talent. My main point, if you can remember, was to refute the idea that a great way to see if a QB is great is by taking away his best/#1 WR.

        There are exceptions, you can argue Brady is one, what you can't dispute is the fact that Brady or any QB would be better with a great WR.
        Its usually a combination of both. It also depends on the dynamics of the scheme and the quality of other players as well.
        Clearly if a QB has crap WR's (or vise versa like Arizona) the passing game will suffer.

        But the ultimate point is that Eli isn't carrying our WR's. Hakeem Nicks would be a great WR with most any QB. This notion that Victor Cruz would be lost without Eli is just Cultist nonsense.
        Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
          I think Randle could have a huge year. That's why I'm not as obsessed with the Cruz situation as some here.
          But this is the season for the offense to shine. That's why I've been talking up dealing with the O line first this off season.
          Honestly, I think the Oline will struggle. The only thing new on the O-line is a rookie, if we draft one. He will have a learning curve as all rookies do, especially in pass protection. I'm hoping a healthy Snee will add some punch to our running game.
          Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

          http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
            Honestly, I think the Oline will struggle. The only thing new on the O-line is a rookie, if we draft one. He will have a learning curve as all rookies do, especially in pass protection. I'm hoping a healthy Snee will add some punch to our running game.
            If Fluker is our pick I think he might be a decent plug and play guy at RT. I really don't know what to expect with Brewer if he's the guy.
            I was big on signing a FA right tackle (a guy like Winston) to really solidify the O line. But that doesn't look like its going to happen.
            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              Its usually a combination of both. It also depends on the dynamics of the scheme and the quality of other players as well.
              Clearly if a QB has crap WR's (or vise versa like Arizona) the passing game will suffer.

              But the ultimate point is that Eli isn't carrying our WR's. Hakeem Nicks would be a great WR with most any QB. This notion that Victor Cruz would be lost without Eli is just Cultist nonsense.
              I've always said Eli has never played with bad WR talent, in fact quite the opposite. Started with Toomer in his prime, Plax, and Shockey, then on to SS, Nicks, and now Cruz; no real greatness there, but definitely not awful.
              Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

              http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                If Fluker is our pick I think he might be a decent plug and play guy at RT. I really don't know what to expect with Brewer if he's the guy.
                I was big on signing a FA right tackle (a guy like Winston) to really solidify the O line. But that doesn't look like its going to happen.
                Fluker is shooting up the boards like I don't know what. I think he may be gone by 19.

                Ah yes, I forgot about Brewer. He and Mosely are wild cards. They may surprise. Brewer could also help the running game if he's up to the task of pass protection.
                Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                  I've always said Eli has never played with bad WR talent, in fact quite the opposite. Started with Toomer in his prime, Plax, and Shockey, then on to SS, Nicks, and now Cruz; no real greatness there, but definitely not awful.
                  A lot better than Bobby Johnson and Lionel Manuel.
                  Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                    Aikman had Irvin. Montana and Young had Rice, Marino had the Marks brothers, Peyton had Harrison and Wayne. Brady with Moss was incomparable to Brady without. Great QBs usually play with great WRs.
                    Brady and Peyton have put up great numbers no matter who they played with. Montana did well with Dwight Clark before Rice was around and maybe you forgot about John Taylor who played across from Rice. I mean he was only an All-Decade receiver. Marino had the Marks brothers. Neither of who would have been as effective without the other. All of these guys had good numbers because their QB did not force the ball to just 1 guy!

                    Anyway my point is all these other QB's spread the ball around. Stafford doesn't! He forces the ball to a receiver that may be better in the long run than all of those you mentioned! He's already broken or tied a number of NFL receiving records and he's ONLY 27!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                      Aikman had Irvin. Montana and Young had Rice, Marino had the Marks brothers, Peyton had Harrison and Wayne. Brady with Moss was incomparable to Brady without. Great QBs usually play with great WRs.
                      Maybe a small point here, but Montana won 2 of his 4 Super Bowls before Rice was drafted into the league.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by DVision View Post
                        Brady and Peyton have put up great numbers no matter who they played with. Montana did well with Dwight Clark before Rice was around and maybe you forgot about John Taylor who played across from Rice. I mean he was only an All-Decade receiver. Marino had the Marks brothers. Neither of who would have been as effective without the other. All of these guys had good numbers because their QB did not force the ball to just 1 guy!

                        Anyway my point is all these other QB's spread the ball around. Stafford doesn't! He forces the ball to a receiver that may be better in the long run than all of those you mentioned! He's already broken or tied a number of NFL receiving records and he's ONLY 27!
                        Well....great QB's are great QB's, guys like Peyton and Brady don't "need" great WR's. Even a guy like Rodgers who might pass them all still thrived without Jennings.
                        "Very good" QB's like Eli do need some more talent around them to succeed.

                        Having said that, often times a FO will try to put better talent around a great QB to maximize his talent. While Duper and Clayton were not great, Marino's O line was.
                        Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
                          Maybe a small point here, but Montana won 2 of his 4 Super Bowls before Rice was drafted into the league.
                          Exactly! The Dwight Clark and Freddie Soloman era!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                            Well....great QB's are great QB's, guys like Peyton and Brady don't "need" great WR's. Even a guy like Rodgers who might pass them all still thrived without Jennings.
                            "Very good" QB's like Eli do need some more talent around them to succeed.

                            Having said that, often times a FO will try to put better talent around a great QB to maximize his talent. While Duper and Clayton were not great, Marino's O line was.
                            I agree completely! Although I think being a the right system has a lot to do with a QB and/or a receivers success.

                            Again my point originated with the fact that the verdict is still out on Stafford until he doesn't have his safety blanket. Is he good, very good, etc...?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DVision View Post
                              I agree completely! Although I think being a the right system has a lot to do with a QB and/or a receivers success.

                              Again my point originated with the fact that the verdict is still out on Stafford until he doesn't have his safety blanket. Is he good, very good, etc...?
                              Stafford looks like the real deal. Obviously Megatron is super human, but he has no other option at all. I mean their #2 is worse than most teams #3 or 4.

                              Kid can throw the ball and has really good accuracy and toughness.
                              Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DVision View Post
                                Brady and Peyton have put up great numbers no matter who they played with. Montana did well with Dwight Clark before Rice was around and maybe you forgot about John Taylor who played across from Rice. I mean he was only an All-Decade receiver. Marino had the Marks brothers. Neither of who would have been as effective without the other. All of these guys had good numbers because their QB did not force the ball to just 1 guy!

                                Anyway my point is all these other QB's spread the ball around. Stafford doesn't! He forces the ball to a receiver that may be better in the long run than all of those you mentioned! He's already broken or tied a number of NFL receiving records and he's ONLY 27!
                                When has Peyton played with bad WRs....never. Clark was decent (don't really remember). Taylor was good, real good. Montana played the majority of his career with great receiving talent. My point was that good/great QBs more often than not play with good/great WR talent. I think the QB-WR relationship is a symbiotic one.
                                Last edited by B&RWarrior; 04-23-2013, 01:47 PM.
                                Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                                http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                                Comment

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