Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

When Will Giants Receivers Learn

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by DVision View Post
    Exactly! The Dwight Clark and Freddie Soloman era!
    I dont't remember. Was Clark average or good? I looked at his stats, but that is a poor reference point if you didn't see him play.
    Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      Stafford looks like the real deal. Obviously Megatron is super human, but he has no other option at all. I mean their #2 is worse than most teams #3 or 4.

      Kid can throw the ball and has really good accuracy and toughness.
      I don't like Detroit's offense at all.
      Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

      http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
        When has Peyton played with bad WRs....never. Clark was decent. Taylor was good, real good. Montana played the majority of his career with great receiving talent. My point was that good/great QBs more often than not play with great WR good/great QB talent. I think the QB-WR relationship is a symbiotic one.
        A lot of great QB's didn't have great WR's. Its not always as you suggest.
        The "Marks" were WAY overrated in Miami. And its true that Montana had good but not great WR's with him first 2 SB teams.
        And, as I said, Brady hasn't had much for most of his career.
        Peyton also demonstrated that he can produce, even with a couple second year guys.
        And my guy Phil had nothing but Bavaro.
        Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
          I don't like Detroit's offense at all.
          Its basically Stafford and Megatron and no one else. This season should be better with Bush but we'll see.
          This lends itself to the notion that Stafford is the real deal. They have a bad O line, no running game (until maybe this coming season) and 1 (albeit great) WR.
          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
            Stafford looks like the real deal. Obviously Megatron is super human, but he has no other option at all. I mean their #2 is worse than most teams #3 or 4.

            Kid can throw the ball and has really good accuracy and toughness.
            I like him. I like his release point (which is seemingly from everywhere). He can throw a perfect sidearm pass, but he does have some other good weapons. Nate Burleson is not a bad receiver when healthy (rarely ) and Brandon Pettigrew is a quality tight end.

            It's just hard to judge a QB that has the luxury of throwing to a guy who is basically impossible to cover. Even without another serious threat opposite him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
              A lot of great QB's didn't have great WR's. Its not always as you suggest.
              The "Marks" were WAY overrated in Miami. And its true that Montana had good but not great WR's with him first 2 SB teams.
              And, as I said, Brady hasn't had much for most of his career.
              Peyton also demonstrated that he can produce, even with a couple second year guys.
              And my guy Phil had nothing but Bavaro.
              Okay, you say a lot, so name them.

              So far I've got Brady, and Simms. Brady has had Wes Welker--if not great it's as close to greatness as you can get without being great.
              Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

              http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                Okay, you say a lot, so name them.

                So far I've got Brady, and Simms. Brady has had Wes Welker--if not great it's as close to greatness as you can get without being great.
                Welker was a return guy and a 4th WR before he was traded to NE.

                The top 6 all time passers, I would say that only one had truly great WR's. And that's Peyton.
                Now add Brees and Brady and you have 8 of the top passers.

                Favre went from Sharpe to Driver for most of his career. Both were good but not great.
                Marino didn't have great WR's, Elway had Rod Smith and not much else.
                Tarkenton didn't have great WR's at all.
                And warren Moon had some nice WR's, but again, nothing great.
                Brees has Colston who's a good player but he spreads it around everywhere.
                Last edited by Morehead State; 04-23-2013, 03:10 PM.
                Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                  When has Peyton played with bad WRs....never. Clark was decent (don't really remember). Taylor was good, real good. Montana played the majority of his career with great receiving talent. My point was that good/great QBs more often than not play with good/great WR talent. I think the QB-WR relationship is a symbiotic one.
                  I never said Peyton played with bad receivers. We don't really know how good Dwight Clark or Soloman really were because it was before FA and they played basically their entire careers in SF with Montana. In that system with that QB they were excellent. Just as we don't know what Rice's numbers would look like if he didn't have a guy like Taylor across from him his entire career in SF who rarely even gets mentioned or if he wasn't catching balls from Montana and Young. (although I'm sure they still would have been pretty good)

                  I do agree that the QB-WR relationship is symbiotic in many instances. I think the OC needs to be included in that also as the West Coast offense was perfectly suited for their skill sets.
                  Last edited by DVision; 04-23-2013, 03:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DVision View Post
                    I think the OC needs to be included in that also as the West Coast offense was perfectly suited for their skill sets.
                    Great point! This is the most overlooked point, the system. I give almost as much credit to Walsh and that system as I do to any of the players. How many teams went on to some level of success running a version of Walsh's West Coast offense.
                    Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                      Great point! This is the most overlooked point, the system. I give almost as much credit to Walsh and that system as I do to any of the players. How many teams went on to some level of success running a version of Walsh's West Coast offense.
                      It just takes a particular type of QB. You can be a West Coast type player and still be a great QB.
                      QB's tend to end up in the scheme that favors their ability.
                      Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                        Well....great QB's are great QB's, guys like Peyton and Brady don't "need" great WR's. Even a guy like Rodgers who might pass them all still thrived without Jennings.
                        "Very good" QB's like Eli do need some more talent around them to succeed.

                        Having said that, often times a FO will try to put better talent around a great QB to maximize his talent. While Duper and Clayton were not great, Marino's O line was.
                        But the fact that when Marino was in his prime, he had no running game, defense, and that everyone knew he was going to drop back to pass kind of counteracted that. They were good but not great. Granted some of it was because he dropped back to pass so many times, but he got sacked more than anyone in the league for i don't know how many years straight. But it was a lot.
                        http://boards.giants.com/showthread....est-game/page6
                        http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2554_A_brief,_fact-filled_history_of_the_NFL_passing_game.html
                        http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/8732732/is-new-york-giants-qb-eli-manning-worthy-hall-fame-espn-magazine

                        Entire Team Let Eli down today - NYG4l

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by gumby74 View Post
                          But the fact that when Marino was in his prime, he had no running game, defense, and that everyone knew he was going to drop back to pass kind of counteracted that. They were good but not great. Granted some of it was because he dropped back to pass so many times, but he got sacked more than anyone in the league for i don't know how many years straight. But it was a lot.
                          Don't get me wrong. I think Marino was maybe the greatest QB I ever saw.
                          You put him on the Cowboys of the 90's and he wins about 6 chamionships.
                          He was a close to a one man team in Miami, as I have ever seen.
                          Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
                            Welker was a return guy and a 4th WR before he was traded to NE.

                            The top 6 all time passers, I would say that only one had truly great WR's. And that's Peyton.
                            Now add Brees and Brady and you have 8 of the top passers.

                            Favre went from Sharpe to Driver for most of his career. Both were good but not great.
                            Marino didn't have great WR's, Elway had Rod Smith and not much else.
                            Tarkenton didn't have great WR's at all.
                            And warren Moon had some nice WR's, but again, nothing great.
                            Brees has Colston who's a good player but he spreads it around everywhere.
                            What does Welker's history have to do with anything? He's been arguably the best slot receiver in the NFL for the past 5 years.

                            Montana- Great, I cant account for Clark but another poster said he was excellent in that system. I know from 86 on Montana had great receivers.
                            Marino- very good Wr core, even if you don't want to admit it.
                            Brees- had Gates in SD- a great TE, and in NO I agree its really that system more than the greatness of any one WR
                            Steve Young- Great
                            Warren Moon- had good Wrs on Houston, I can't remember if CC was in Minnesota when he was there, and Galloway in Seattle.
                            Favre had good receivers most of his career- Sharpe was great, Driver was real good as is Jennings, Andre Rison was very very good. Antonio Freeman was very good before the ACL as was Jevon Walker.
                            Peyton- great WRs- Wayne, and Harrison.
                            I don't remember Unitas or Tarkenton.

                            Sorry MS most great QBs have had good/ great receiving talent to work with.
                            Because of all of the effort and examination being poured into these predictions, the draft is a robust market that, in the aggregate, does a good job of sorting prospects from top to bottom.1 Yet despite so many people trying to “beat the market,” no single actor can do it consistently. Abnormal returns are likely due to luck, not skill. But that hasn’t stopped NFL executives from behaving with the confidence of traders.

                            http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...eat-the-draft/

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by B&RWarrior View Post
                              What does Welker's history have to do with anything? He's been arguably the best slot receiver in the NFL for the past 5 years.

                              Montana- Great, I cant account for Clark but another poster said he was excellent in that system. I know from 86 on Montana had great receivers.
                              Marino- very good Wr core, even if you don't want to admit it.
                              Brees- had Gates in SD- a great TE, and in NO I agree its really that system more than the greatness of any one WR
                              Steve Young- Great
                              Warren Moon- had good Wrs on Houston, I can't remember if CC was in Minnesota when he was there, and Galloway in Seattle.
                              Favre had good receivers most of his career- Sharpe was great, Driver was real good as is Jennings, Andre Rison was very very good. Antonio Freeman was very good before the ACL as was Jevon Walker.
                              Peyton- great WRs- Wayne, and Harrison.
                              I don't remember Unitas or Tarkenton.

                              Sorry MS most great QBs have had good/ great receiving talent to work with.
                              Well I disagree. And I really don't understand your point. That there are no great QB's? They can only be great if there is this one factor that they can't control (having great WR's) to make them great.
                              I just don't get this argument.
                              A great QB is simply a great QB. Do his numbers get better with better talent around him? Obviously.
                              Is he a better player simply because the players around him are better? No.

                              You put Dan Marino, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana on any team and they are still great. And FO's will stock that offense with as much talent as they can to take advantage of their greatness. Usually.


                              BTW...Dwight Clark was very good but hardly great. And Freddy Soloman as well. He was a nice player but hardly a great one. And guess what?
                              Montana was great when they were there. When Rice and taylor came, he was just as great.
                              Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                OP is ridiculous.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X