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  • Offensive Woes and Bad Pass Protection

    ....are a thing of the past IMO

    this years pass protection scheme will be totally different from last years. Anyone who says or is concerned about our OL performing the same, worse or just marginally better than last year just does not understand football schematically. Same for those who are concerned MAC will be conservative in his offensive play calling.

    The additions of Rhett Ellison and Shaun Draughn and possibly (and most likely) Shane Smith were moves that clearly addressed our offensive woes without rolling the dice and drafting a sub par rookie OL (since the class was not deep at all). Instead we draft an immediate impact player in Engram to compliment an already dangerous receiving corp not to mention Brandon Marshall. And don't forget, Shane Vereen is one of the better pass blocking backs in the league.

    Clearly we do do what we do and Jerry Reese manages the New York Football Giants for a damn reason!

    Take a look at this writeup on the kid Shane Smith:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.big...fb-shane-smith

  • #2
    I will bet Draugn who averaged like 2.4 yards a carry last year and even if he does what difference does he make?

    Also you talk about protection scheme but go into zero detail about exactly what changes will be made, I doubt it's a complete overhaul as you're implying as that's extremely rare to see out of any coach as they all have certain schematic beliefs and preferences.. also you're implying that a change in protection scheme will 100% automatically and certainly improve our protection by a very strong margin, no offense but that's a rediculous statement to make

    Sorry but I'm calling bs as you did not cite one issue with our protection scheme nor one change that's going to made (Lord knows how you would obtain that information anyway, Mac send you a copy of the revised 2017 play book?)

    And let's pump the breaks a bit on all this best weaponry in football talk, we added a rookie who were hopeful about.. but we all know what can happen with any rookie, I LOVE the Marshall signing but he is what? 34 years old? No guarantees he doesnt wash out, all we did this off-season was bring in some POTENTIAL fixes, but nothing even close to certain.. the oline and run game as a whole received jack, they could both be absolutely crippling issues once again.. this offense has POTENTIAL to be dangerous but it has just as much potential to be the usual 2v11 show (Eli, Odell, and a bunch of trash dragging them down)

    As far as the playcalling as a whole, we are in wait and see mode but all I know is last year's playcalling was the biggest joke I have EVER seen on a pro football field, you can blame it on not having enough talent.. except pretty much the exact same personell (maybe even a touch worse) was good enough to be the 6th ranked offense in the league the year before last (riding nothing but Eli and Odell which proved at the end of the day those 2 by themselves should be enough) Mac **** the bed in a big way last year and that gives me major cause for concern that his offense ain't **** without Coughlin around.. but we will see, also I don't like blaming personell on bad play calling, play calling is a game of it's own and if you're constantly being countered because of your predictability you suck at your job, I don't care if you run 11 personell all day out of necessity, if you employ good route combos our pass game will flourish, even with the bad OL and all the bum targets, who you're not helping when defenses know exactly where they're going... all I know is if we see this kind of disaster again next year, Mac should be fired or at the very minimum be forced to relinquish offensive playcalling duties.. ****ING GET BACK TO WHAT WE DID THE PREVIOUS 2 SEASONS, idk why it runs in the blood of all giants coaches to find out exactly what we do well, what works.. and completely abandon it, just tear it out and ****ing burn it.. yet on the flipside despite averaging 0.jack**** yards per carry on first down iso runs we will pound them to death over and over and over again like eventually 1 of these runs we're suddenly gonna go from being the absolute worst at it to the Dallas cowboys, that's the **** that makes me think it's rigged lol no way human beings can be this dumb that they thing your supposed to spam what you're worst at and abandon what your best at permanently
    If you've never played your opinion is invalid

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Eliordie View Post
      I will bet Draugn who averaged like 2.4 yards a carry last year and even if he does what difference does he make?

      Also you talk about protection scheme but go into zero detail about exactly what changes will be made, I doubt it's a complete overhaul as you're implying as that's extremely rare to see out of any coach as they all have certain schematic beliefs and preferences.. also you're implying that a change in protection scheme will 100% automatically and certainly improve our protection by a very strong margin, no offense but that's a rediculous statement to make

      Sorry but I'm calling bs as you did not cite one issue with our protection scheme nor one change that's going to made (Lord knows how you would obtain that information anyway, Mac send you a copy of the revised 2017 play book?)

      And let's pump the breaks a bit on all this best weaponry in football talk, we added a rookie who were hopeful about.. but we all know what can happen with any rookie, I LOVE the Marshall signing but he is what? 34 years old? No guarantees he doesnt wash out, all we did this off-season was bring in some POTENTIAL fixes, but nothing even close to certain.. the oline and run game as a whole received jack, they could both be absolutely crippling issues once again.. this offense has POTENTIAL to be dangerous but it has just as much potential to be the usual 2v11 show (Eli, Odell, and a bunch of trash dragging them down)

      As far as the playcalling as a whole, we are in wait and see mode but all I know is last year's playcalling was the biggest joke I have EVER seen on a pro football field, you can blame it on not having enough talent.. except pretty much the exact same personell (maybe even a touch worse) was good enough to be the 6th ranked offense in the league the year before last (riding nothing but Eli and Odell which proved at the end of the day those 2 by themselves should be enough) Mac **** the bed in a big way last year and that gives me major cause for concern that his offense ain't **** without Coughlin around.. but we will see, also I don't like blaming personell on bad play calling, play calling is a game of it's own and if you're constantly being countered because of your predictability you suck at your job, I don't care if you run 11 personell all day out of necessity, if you employ good route combos our pass game will flourish, even with the bad OL and all the bum targets, who you're not helping when defenses know exactly where they're going... all I know is if we see this kind of disaster again next year, Mac should be fired or at the very minimum be forced to relinquish offensive playcalling duties.. ****ING GET BACK TO WHAT WE DID THE PREVIOUS 2 SEASONS, idk why it runs in the blood of all giants coaches to find out exactly what we do well, what works.. and completely abandon it, just tear it out and ****ing burn it.. yet on the flipside despite averaging 0.jack**** yards per carry on first down iso runs we will pound them to death over and over and over again like eventually 1 of these runs we're suddenly gonna go from being the absolute worst at it to the Dallas cowboys, that's the **** that makes me think it's rigged lol no way human beings can be this dumb that they thing your supposed to spam what you're worst at and abandon what your best at permanently
      Summer heat gettin to ya?
      "Sir, I was wondering: did you happen to catch the professional football contest on television last night?"
      "No...I didn't."
      "Oh it was most exhilarating: the Giants of NY took on the Packers of Green Bay and in the end the Giants triumphed by kicking an oblong ball made of pigskin through a big H. It was a most ripping victory."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JoeBigBlue View Post

        Summer heat gettin to ya?
        Should've seen me during the season, but tell me one thing in there that ain't true
        If you've never played your opinion is invalid

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree that we need to pump the brakes a little bit.

          Rhett Ellison sat out all of OTA's and mini-camp with a calf injury. That is very concerning.

          Draughn is a journeyman and there is no guarantee that Smith even makes the team.

          I love Marshall but he is 33. I have high hopes for Engram but he is a rookie ....

          And we will likely field the same OL that we did last year.

          We had very limited injuries last year. Can we repeat that?

          Not to say that I'm not optimistic about the season, but I would say that I am cautiously optimistic....
          Last edited by TCHOF; 07-13-2017, 06:48 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Eliordie View Post
            I will bet Draugn who averaged like 2.4 yards a carry last year and even if he does what difference does he make?

            Also you talk about protection scheme but go into zero detail about exactly what changes will be made, I doubt it's a complete overhaul as you're implying as that's extremely rare to see out of any coach as they all have certain schematic beliefs and preferences.. also you're implying that a change in protection scheme will 100% automatically and certainly improve our protection by a very strong margin, no offense but that's a rediculous statement to make

            Sorry but I'm calling bs as you did not cite one issue with our protection scheme nor one change that's going to made (Lord knows how you would obtain that information anyway, Mac send you a copy of the revised 2017 play book?)

            And let's pump the breaks a bit on all this best weaponry in football talk, we added a rookie who were hopeful about.. but we all know what can happen with any rookie, I LOVE the Marshall signing but he is what? 34 years old? No guarantees he doesnt wash out, all we did this off-season was bring in some POTENTIAL fixes, but nothing even close to certain.. the oline and run game as a whole received jack, they could both be absolutely crippling issues once again.. this offense has POTENTIAL to be dangerous but it has just as much potential to be the usual 2v11 show (Eli, Odell, and a bunch of trash dragging them down)

            As far as the playcalling as a whole, we are in wait and see mode but all I know is last year's playcalling was the biggest joke I have EVER seen on a pro football field, you can blame it on not having enough talent.. except pretty much the exact same personell (maybe even a touch worse) was good enough to be the 6th ranked offense in the league the year before last (riding nothing but Eli and Odell which proved at the end of the day those 2 by themselves should be enough) Mac **** the bed in a big way last year and that gives me major cause for concern that his offense ain't **** without Coughlin around.. but we will see, also I don't like blaming personell on bad play calling, play calling is a game of it's own and if you're constantly being countered because of your predictability you suck at your job, I don't care if you run 11 personell all day out of necessity, if you employ good route combos our pass game will flourish, even with the bad OL and all the bum targets, who you're not helping when defenses know exactly where they're going... all I know is if we see this kind of disaster again next year, Mac should be fired or at the very minimum be forced to relinquish offensive playcalling duties.. ****ING GET BACK TO WHAT WE DID THE PREVIOUS 2 SEASONS, idk why it runs in the blood of all giants coaches to find out exactly what we do well, what works.. and completely abandon it, just tear it out and ****ing burn it.. yet on the flipside despite averaging 0.jack**** yards per carry on first down iso runs we will pound them to death over and over and over again like eventually 1 of these runs we're suddenly gonna go from being the absolute worst at it to the Dallas cowboys, that's the **** that makes me think it's rigged lol no way human beings can be this dumb that they thing your supposed to spam what you're worst at and abandon what your best at permanently
            OK, there is a lot to unpack above and a lot that can't be unpacked because some of it makes zero sense but first and foremost, I'm not sure what you're not seeing. The offense (aside from the OL) looks completely different than it did last year. If you think we had the talent required on the offensive side of the ball last year to do anything other than what MAC did, you are just kidding yourself. The fact of the matter is that MAC is conservative to begin with. He focuses on the fundamental aspects of running an offense which worked out better than any of us could have dreamed last year. Had he gotten more exotic with his routes/ scheme as you suggest he should have, Eli would have thrown more interceptions and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs which is goal #1.

            Last year we had ZERO receiving threats coming out of the backfield. Aside from Vereen (who was injured most of the year), Jennings was the most productive receiver out of the backfield and ranked 40th in the league in reception yards per game. Not only does Draughn provide an alternative to Vereen but he is known for his pass blocking abilities. We got zero pass blocking out of our backs last year.... and BTW, we didn't pick Draughn up for his running game. This much should be obvious to anyone.

            Assuming all else is the same and there are no schematic changes (which there will be), this in it of itself should afford Eli more time in the pocket or a check down option he didn't have last year. This game is so fast and parity is so great that even just a small change like this can make a world of difference. If Eli is able to hold onto the ball for an average of .5 seconds longer last year, our offense would have been more productive.

            Also, when it comes to the offensive scheme this year, it wasn't until week 8 or 9 that our running game improved and it improved drastically. In the first 8 games we ran the ball for a 100 yards or more 2 times. In the final eight games, we did so 6 times. The reason for this is because MAC started to use a 2 TE set. He realized that if we were going to be successful running the ball, that we needed to diversify our set. That said, we improved here drastically. Rhett Ellison is expected to be healthy for training camp as per a report by Paul Schwartz on July 1st.

            Having both Ellison and Engram on the field at the same time will keep the defense honest. Not only will they need to stack more players in the box since the running game will be vastly improved from the beginning of last year but now the screen play, a favorite of MAC's will be a viable option whereas last year it wasn't. This opens up the seam for Engram who will be an impact player no matter which way you slice it.

            This is just a start. The advantages of having the ability to run the ball more effectively, having a screen play at your disposal and possessing a threat in the middle of the field opens up the rest of the offense...and I haven't even talked about what a true blocking FB can do for your running game. You don't think this kid Shane Smith is going to make the team, but if you know anything about MAC, a blocking FB is just what the doctor ordered. Honestly, I'm not sure how defenses are going to be able to defend against our offense with Marshall and OBJ on the outside.

            Dude, you need to be a bit more optimistic. With all due respect, we have no reason not to be.....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TCHOF View Post
              I agree that we need to pump the brakes a little bit.

              Rhett Ellison sat out all of OTA's and mini-camp with a calf injury. That is very concerning.

              Draughn is a journeyman and there is no guarantee that Smith even makes the team.

              I love Marshall but he is 33. I have high hopes for Engram but he is a rookie ....

              And we will likely field the same OL that we did last year.

              We had very limited injuries last year. Can we repeat that?

              Not to say that I'm not optimistic about the season, but I would say that I am cautiously optimistic....
              There's also no guarantee that Draughn makes the team. He has a few guys ahead of him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ShineOnForever View Post

                There's also no guarantee that Draughn makes the team. He has a few guys ahead of him.
                Agreed

                Comment


                • #9
                  Are there reasons to be optimistic......YES!

                  Are there reasons to be pessimistic...YES!

                  I'm more of a show me guy than tell me.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by alwaysready View Post

                    OK, there is a lot to unpack above and a lot that can't be unpacked because some of it makes zero sense but first and foremost, I'm not sure what you're not seeing. The offense (aside from the OL) looks completely different than it did last year. If you think we had the talent required on the offensive side of the ball last year to do anything other than what MAC did, you are just kidding yourself. The fact of the matter is that MAC is conservative to begin with. He focuses on the fundamental aspects of running an offense which worked out better than any of us could have dreamed last year. Had he gotten more exotic with his routes/ scheme as you suggest he should have, Eli would have thrown more interceptions and we probably wouldn't have made the playoffs which is goal #1.

                    Last year we had ZERO receiving threats coming out of the backfield. Aside from Vereen (who was injured most of the year), Jennings was the most productive receiver out of the backfield and ranked 40th in the league in reception yards per game. Not only does Draughn provide an alternative to Vereen but he is known for his pass blocking abilities. We got zero pass blocking out of our backs last year.... and BTW, we didn't pick Draughn up for his running game. This much should be obvious to anyone.

                    Assuming all else is the same and there are no schematic changes (which there will be), this in it of itself should afford Eli more time in the pocket or a check down option he didn't have last year. This game is so fast and parity is so great that even just a small change like this can make a world of difference. If Eli is able to hold onto the ball for an average of .5 seconds longer last year, our offense would have been more productive.

                    Also, when it comes to the offensive scheme this year, it wasn't until week 8 or 9 that our running game improved and it improved drastically. In the first 8 games we ran the ball for a 100 yards or more 2 times. In the final eight games, we did so 6 times. The reason for this is because MAC started to use a 2 TE set. He realized that if we were going to be successful running the ball, that we needed to diversify our set. That said, we improved here drastically. Rhett Ellison is expected to be healthy for training camp as per a report by Paul Schwartz on July 1st.

                    Having both Ellison and Engram on the field at the same time will keep the defense honest. Not only will they need to stack more players in the box since the running game will be vastly improved from the beginning of last year but now the screen play, a favorite of MAC's will be a viable option whereas last year it wasn't. This opens up the seam for Engram who will be an impact player no matter which way you slice it.

                    This is just a start. The advantages of having the ability to run the ball more effectively, having a screen play at your disposal and possessing a threat in the middle of the field opens up the rest of the offense...and I haven't even talked about what a true blocking FB can do for your running game. You don't think this kid Shane Smith is going to make the team, but if you know anything about MAC, a blocking FB is just what the doctor ordered. Honestly, I'm not sure how defenses are going to be able to defend against our offense with Marshall and OBJ on the outside.

                    Dude, you need to be a bit more optimistic. With all due respect, we have no reason not to be.....
                    It may not sound like it but I swear I'm 50% optimism and 50% skeptical

                    Also feel like it's worth nothing that the boost in the run game was because of the subtraction of Jennings (mainly, he's THAT worthless) and the addition of Perkins, we couldn't have been running that much 2 TE because we only ran like 60 snaps out of like 950 NOT in 11 personell last year (forget the EXACT numbers but someone posted it on BR just the other day) but I don't WANT a whole lot of 2 TE sets, we are the opposite of a power offense and outside of short yardage situations there will hardly ever be a time where Ellison being on the field will be more valuable than one of the 3 receivers who would have to come off in favor of him, I also don't wanna become formation predictable, and when I say that I don't mean like last year where you know what were coming out in, frankly I'm fine with that since it won't tip plays unless you're situation predictable with your calls (which we were incredibly.. unfortunately) what I mean is I don't wanna put 2 TEs on the field and the D knows.. well.. this is a run, and pass plays out of that formation will obviously be less effective, now obviously I'm ok with it here and there just not a whole **** ton of it

                    And for us to get any screens in we have to get teams out of man coverage otherwise they can just jump the **** out of it, also the timing of our screen calls has been something I've criticized for years (and no I'm not one to ***** about it on 3rd and forever cause I'd make that same call plenty)

                    But all in all I think all we add are solid complimentary guys (which is fine if all goes to plan, but there's no guarantee) like everyone is saying omg best weapons in the league and blah blah, but if God forbid the unspeakable happens to Odell.. we're completely ****ed, doesn't sound like the best group of targets in the league to me (though it COULD end up being that) but a good portion of these guys are big question marks despite our excitement over them

                    But I can not trust the run game, I can not trust the worst tackles I've ever watched play, and I can not trust the play calling until I've SEEN improvements in these areas, as of right now the only 2 things on O I'm sure about are Eli and Odell
                    If you've never played your opinion is invalid

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ShineOnForever View Post

                      There's also no guarantee that Draughn makes the team. He has a few guys ahead of him.
                      I think either Smith or Draughn make the team. We kept 5 RB's last year and we could this year as well.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Nothing against you personally, a lot of giants fans (and non) share your sentiment that we will be a great offense this year, but i have a fundamental disagreement with how adamant everyone is about that.. like our offense was absolute dog **** last year, bottom 5 in the league.. now all of a sudden were 100% gonna be a top tier offense? Alright well you must have added a bunch of sure-fire contributors right? Well no.. none actually, ok well you at least touched up that Oline that killed you right? No, not at all really.. Alright well the playcalling is gonna be 10x better like it needs to be right? Um idk

                        Lol I think you see my point and I'm not trying to rain on any parades just bring a bit of realism to the optimism, if you're gonna look at the good ya gotta look at the bad and on paper this looks like a high risk high reward offense (personell wise)

                        That being said I hope they destroy everything in the way and by week 14 we're all arguing over whether Eli or Odell should be league MVP
                        If you've never played your opinion is invalid

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by alwaysready View Post
                          ....are a thing of the past IMO

                          this years pass protection scheme will be totally different from last years. Anyone who says or is concerned about our OL performing the same, worse or just marginally better than last year just does not understand football schematically. Same for those who are concerned MAC will be conservative in his offensive play calling.

                          The additions of Rhett Ellison and Shaun Draughn and possibly (and most likely) Shane Smith were moves that clearly addressed our offensive woes without rolling the dice and drafting a sub par rookie OL (since the class was not deep at all). Instead we draft an immediate impact player in Engram to compliment an already dangerous receiving corp not to mention Brandon Marshall. And don't forget, Shane Vereen is one of the better pass blocking backs in the league.

                          Clearly we do do what we do and Jerry Reese manages the New York Football Giants for a damn reason!

                          Take a look at this writeup on the kid Shane Smith:

                          https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.big...fb-shane-smith
                          About the only thing I agree with is that the offense will get better. It's hard not to when they were in the bottom 5 of several offensive categories statistically. I think you're giving McAdoo too much credit. I uneerstand there were some injuries but good coaches ADJUST, he did nothing but run the same plays over and over again with the same lackluster results. He showed zero creativity or ingenuity. He was horrendous to put it nicely.

                          The blocking should be better on paper with the addition of Ellison and Marshall but the rest of the O line is questionable at best until we see how they do in week 1. You mention schematics but fail to bring up physicality and talent. To assume our offensive woes are over just because they look slightly better on paper is being overly optimistic IMO.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think most of you are all misunderstanding where Im coming from. I don't expect MAC to become Mike Martz. I also think that many of you have to change your expectations when it comes to MAC's offensive strategy and play calling. He is never going to air the ball out and run up 40-50 points in a game. It's just not his style of football and it's definitely not why he was hired to be the HC. MAC believes in a tough, old school, run the ball down their throats kind of offense.

                            What I am saying is that our scheme should be different, never the less. Primarily because Eli should have more time and no matter what anyone says about not having added "sure fire" contributors, I don't know WTH that means. We added a HOF WR to our roster who despite having been in the league for as many years as he has, should and will contribute TREMENDOUSLY more than Cruz did last year. Ellison is a "surefire contributor" to our blocking scheme and I don't know WTH you are seeing in Engram but he is no Donnell or Tye. Nor is he just another WR. He is clearly a potential "sure-fire" and at the very least a very quick, sure handed receiving threat that we didn't have last year.

                            It's not just me that's saying it. It's most NFL analysts as well.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Man I felt the same way last year when the Giants didn't re-sign RR and replaced him with a healthy Cruz.

                              I don't have any faith in Ben Mac right now so you can tell I am not too excited with the draft and FA signings yet.

                              Comment

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