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  • Football Outsiders "Red Flags" for NY Giants

    http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=9271344

    http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post...lag-linebacker


    Football Outsiders is doing a series of posts called "Red Flags," which take a look at the biggest remaining issue facing each team with the draft behind us and minicamps getting underway. Today's post is on the NFC East teams , and I'm breaking it up into four smaller posts to examine the red flags team-by-team. This one's on the New York Giants, for whom the greatest remaining concern appears to be linebacker.

    .....Sean McCormick thinks "it's hard to remember the last time the Giants had even one really good player in their linebacking corps." The Giants tend to spend their resources on really good players who play other positions, like the defensive line and wide receiver and quarterback, and the result at linebacker is stuff like this:
    The current starting trio of Dan Connor, Keith Rivers and Jacquian Williams is typical of the patchwork approach general manager Jerry Reese has taken during his tenure. Connor is a solid two-down plugger who is vulnerable in the passing game due to his lack of speed. Rivers is a former top-10 pick who has accumulated more surgeries than sacks in his five-year career. And Jacquian Williams is a guy named Jacquian Williams; he reportedly played in each of the past two seasons, but Giants fans can neither confirm nor deny his presence on the roster.

    ....It's also important to note the Giants spend less time every year in their base 4-3 as passing offenses continue to get more complex and they have to run nickel corners and third safeties into the lineup to offset them. So linebacker is, by definition, a low-priority item for them. Still, there are times when the pass rush isn't dominant and the secondary is lost and the Giants look soft in the middle of the defense, and when that happens you have to think the lack of top talent at the linebacker position is costing them. It's likely to happen a few times this year as well. It's just a decision the Giants always seem to make to go in that direction.

    I rest my case.
    "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

    "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

  • #2
    wow. u really have a disorder here. where are people claiming we have awesome LB's? where are people claiming we dont need to improve the LB unit?


    PEOPLE ARE CONTINUALLY ASKING YOU WHERE ARE THESE LB'S? the article you link even forewarns that "we HAD TO address different positions with the draft picks"....so again, what is your solution?

    would drafting Greene really have made everything alright in your eyes? ANOTHER will lb? he, at best, would be AS GOOD as JWill year 1, AT BEST. hes not a Mike and wouldnt be ready as 1 for years. The picks earlier were all at bigger needs...man, cmon why is this not sinking in? We ALL AGREE WITH YOU, we just understand theres not much to be done...and the possible solutions, JR has exhausted himself (outside of drafting Green in rd 4 when a franchise caliber QB with a 1rst-2nd rd grade was there).

    Comment


    • #3
      its like u think there are people here calling for the LB unit to remain the same...we ALL want improvement. theres nothing out there that actually does improve it, at least not in our price range/list of priorities...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
        its like u think there are people here calling for the LB unit to remain the same...we ALL want improvement. theres nothing out there that actually does improve it, at least not in our price range/list of priorities...
        Yup....nobody was available to be drafted....okay, keep believing that.

        Do you like swampland? I've got some for sale if you're interested.
        "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

        "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

        Comment


        • #5
          lmfao, and the last statement u bolded, u put the emphasis on the wrong statement. the sentence or two before it should be bolded, the part where it says we're in the base 4-3 less and less and the priority for a LB is lesser than anywhere else.

          Comment


          • #6
            So it's the last remaining concern after they filled heir biggest need. A better DL. It's hard to remember the pastime they had a really good LB but not to hard to remember that they won 2 of he last 6 Championships. That is all that matters.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by giantsfan420 View Post
              lmfao, and the last statement u bolded, u put the emphasis on the wrong statement. the sentence or two before it should be bolded, the part where it says we're in the base 4-3 less and less and the priority for a LB is lesser than anywhere else.
              Please, this is topic is concerning what football experts believe are the Giants biggest issues heading into the season.

              My opinions are not part of their input....I'm just posting what I believe is a relevant Giants-related article.

              Thanks, have a great day.
              "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

              "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

              Comment


              • #8
                Fact is we're going into the season with as the author stated "patchwork" core of linebackers. I do like J-Will, but lets see if he can duplicate his rookie season.
                I have read numerous comments that, "we won two Super Bowls with average linebackers" "the linebacker position is becoming almost extinct as value to a 4-3 defense" etc...
                But I say this, there is 11 guys on the field on defense, does the 3 players, 2 depending on the defensive scheme have to be a liability? Do we have to put that much more added pressure on the defensive line to cover a weakness in a position (linebacker)
                I don't have faith in Rivers and Curry, if they can make more tackles then visits to the trainers room I'll be thrilled.
                All in all I'm hoping for the best, and expecting the worst at the linebacker position.

                Giants fan since the early 80s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ny06 View Post
                  Fact is we're going into the season with as the author stated "patchwork" core of linebackers. I do like J-Will, but lets see if he can duplicate his rookie season.
                  I have read numerous comments that, "we won two Super Bowls with average linebackers" "the linebacker position is becoming almost extinct as value to a 4-3 defense" etc...
                  But I say this, there is 11 guys on the field on defense, does the 3 players, 2 depending on the defensive scheme have to be a liability? Do we have to put that much more added pressure on the defensive line to cover a weakness in a position (linebacker)
                  I don't have faith in Rivers and Curry, if they can make more tackles then visits to the trainers room I'll be thrilled.
                  All in all I'm hoping for the best, and expecting the worst at the linebacker position.
                  Very well-said.

                  I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

                  This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

                  We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

                  I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

                  I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

                  If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

                  But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

                  Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.
                  Last edited by joemorrisforprez; 05-16-2013, 12:34 AM.
                  "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

                  "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by joemorrisforprez View Post
                    Very well-said.

                    I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

                    This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

                    We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

                    I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

                    I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

                    If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

                    But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

                    Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.
                    nice post

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      FACT, in '07 the Giants won with Antonio Pierce at MLB an undrafted rookie FA from Arizona and ex-redskin, a WLB FA in Kavika Mitchell and Reggie Torbor as the SLB filling in for Kiwi, injured during the end of the season.

                      FACT, the Giants won in '11 with Chase Blackburn at MLB, Kiwi at SLB and Boley at WLB, don't see any perennial All Pros named.

                      FACT, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the patern Mr. Reese and Co. have in building a contending championship team and if he continues to have success in the future with that formula I'm sure will see the day no one questions his ways anymore.
                      " Success is never final, but failure can be " B.P.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by joemorrisforprez View Post
                        Very well-said.

                        I understand I have a penchant for hyperbole, but what you are saying is right in line with my opinion..... I'm not saying we need to find the next Junior Seau.....but conversely, just because the next Junior Seau wasn't available in middle rounds, doesn't mean we can't try to find an upgrade.

                        This is two straight years without taking a linebacker, and the year prior to that, we waited until the 6th round. I could understand that if we were already loaded at the position, but we're not. In fact, most of the beat writers and NFL analysts indicated that the Giants needed help at two positions....offensive line and linebacker.

                        We nailed down the OL need right out of the gate, which I totally agreed with. I'm fine going for Hankins in the 2nd, and DaMontre Moore in the 3rd.

                        I've got to think Reese took Cooper Taylor because he's going to be a LB-hybrid....and I think the same will be true of DaMontre Moore, perhaps to a lesser degree.

                        I do agree that offenses are changing....but defenses are catching on as well. The same colleges that produced all those freaky athletic TEs are now adapting on defense, too.....the new linebackers rolling off the NCAA assembly line are converted safeties who can fly sideline to sideline and understand coverage.

                        If the game were all about pitch and catch between the guys like Drew Brees and Larry Fitzgerald, then yeah, by all means, we don't need linebackers, because they haven't built one that can man cover Larry Fitzgerald.

                        But over the past 2 years, we've gotten more wildcat, more read-option, faster TEs, more LeSean McCoy-type backs..... in short, we are seeing a need for someone that is faster and more agile than a DE, and can cover....those are the modern day linebackers.

                        Boley in 2011 was close to that player......JWill might develop into that sort of player.......but Boley is gone, and JWill still needs to prove himself. That's why I can understand why the Red Flags are up when it comes to linebacker.
                        Your 8 ball is doing a dandy job today Joe! Keep it going and add on the RGIII type QB's we now see and does that bring on the need for more athletic LB's who run, cover and react like deer? Whatever, for sure the upcoming changes in the league are going to make the game a lot of fun to watch! Hope Big Blue is prepared for these changes. Go Giants!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think we can all agree the mindset is, build the defense around the front four, and try to kick up the scoring with talent at the skill positions. Pressure the other teams with aggressive athletic D-linemen and have agile DB's to pick off errant throws resulting from that pressure. Injuries to, and poor play from the D-line hurt the D's ability to stop other offenses. Smart versatile LB's are a support role it would seem. The over all lack of talent at LB was exposed due to weak DL play. We could never afford to keep top shelf linebackers, due to top pay going elsewhere.

                          Big money went, or is going to offensive skill players. Attention went to the O-line, (finally) when our skill players could not get the ball for all the pressure from opposing defenses. The shoring up of both O an D lines will go a long way to improving the play on both sides of the ball this season. The other big thing will be, to try to keep players on the damn field. That itself would help greatly.

                          The Reese formula can and does work. We need a bit of luck to go our way, just like any other team. In our case, I think our lucky break will be our players being on the field more than at rehab.
                          # 80 (For FBomb)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by G-Men Surg. View Post
                            FACT, in '07 the Giants won with Antonio Pierce at MLB an undrafted rookie FA from Arizona and ex-redskin, a WLB FA in Kavika Mitchell and Reggie Torbor as the SLB filling in for Kiwi, injured during the end of the season.

                            FACT, the Giants won in '11 with Chase Blackburn at MLB, Kiwi at SLB and Boley at WLB, don't see any perennial All Pros named.

                            FACT, doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the patern Mr. Reese and Co. have in building a contending championship team and if he continues to have success in the future with that formula I'm sure will see the day no one questions his ways anymore.
                            If the argument is we can win without good LBs, then one couldn't disagree that legit LBs would make our defense even that much better right???

                            also,when teams attacked the middle of our D all year & there was plenty of obvious game planning to avoid our passrush, then clearly teams have figured out our weakness...2012 is a clear indication that our D is not what it was prior.....every weakness needs to be upgraded & LB is our biggest

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by joemorrisforprez View Post
                              Please, this is topic is concerning what football experts believe are the Giants biggest issues heading into the season.

                              My opinions are not part of their input....I'm just posting what I believe is a relevant Giants-related article.

                              Thanks, have a great day.
                              What makes them experts? The experts are the guys running the team not some talking head on tv. The only difference between us and talking heads is that they have a national tv platform and we don't. This is the same expert opinion that said our 07 draft was a c and yet we had 4 rookies contribute heavly that season and we beat the best team anyone has ever seen in the superbowl. There opinions do not nessarrly reflect reality, if it did the Eagles and Cowboys would have dominated the last 10 years.

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