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The problem with our Giants as I, Pathas, see it (fwiw)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by pathas View Post

    Let me offer this up as an opinion - Players would rally around Spagnolo and they just might elevate their game out of respect for him-so maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Surely not as bad as the present situation where I believe players merely tolerate McAdoo as HC (because of the record last year) but don't really respect him as a football guy. Just an opinion based on my past and present observations of human inter-reaction in work environments.
    The players have seemed to respond very well to Spagnuolo on both of his stints here. And the defense definitely loved the way they played last season, they believed in the scheme and it showed on the field.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pathas View Post

      Let me offer this up as an opinion - Players would rally around Spagnolo and they just might elevate their game out of respect for him-so maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Surely not as bad as the present situation where I believe players merely tolerate McAdoo as HC (because of the record last year) but don't really respect him as a football guy. Just an opinion based on my past and present observations of human inter-reaction in work environments.
      I agree. DRC is just a ripple. There is a silent tidal wave of disrespect for the HC in this locker room . I’ve seen this movie before.

      They’re DOA going into every game as long as he is in charge.

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      • #18
        This was one of, if not the best post I've ever read on here. I think you truly nailed it man, and it explains what a lot of people either knew or thought they knew about a lot of things. There is a reason why guys like Flowers, Apple and even Perkins seemed untouchable even though their poor play was evident to anyone and everyone.

        I agree about Spags too, I think the defensive players love him, and respect him. TC was a great coach and a great man, I will always miss him, and never liked the way things ended with him. We won 2 SB's with him, and he was a great motivator of men. He always came up with something or someone to motivate the team. He was a scapegoat of JR's incompetence, and that is a shame.

        I think your right about the dark days ahead, at least the next few years. I hope that isn't the case, but feel maybe it's time to pay the Piper....

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        • #19
          Originally posted by pathas View Post

          Let me offer this up as an opinion - Players would rally around Spagnolo and they just might elevate their game out of respect for him-so maybe it wouldn't be so bad. Surely not as bad as the present situation where I believe players merely tolerate McAdoo as HC (because of the record last year) but don't really respect him as a football guy. Just an opinion based on my past and present observations of human inter-reaction in work environments.
          Maybe. But to me that would just signal another half-*** attempt by this ownership to direct this ship in a new direction.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by buried_in_snow View Post

            Maybe. But to me that would just signal another half-*** attempt by this ownership to direct this ship in a new direction.
            I think it might be interpreted that way by some who want to see big changes in order to inspire hope or optimism but what if they truly feel that is the best option? You'd hope they'd be able to gauge whether or not that would be positive for the future of the team.

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            • #21
              I thought they needed to clean house 2 years ago when they let Coughlin go, and I think that is the case this year. Not sure B Mac makes it to the end of the year. If things keep breaking down, I could see him ousted earlier.

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              • #22
                I mean on the surface to some it may appear as half *** but the reality might be that he could be a good HC with a bad first stint similar to Belichek, someone who is good at motivating, has great preparation and game planning and is also good at making adjustments which shows that his ultimate goal is to win, not shove some fantasy system down his players throats that doesn't suit the players strengths. Plus he might even find an OC with a better scheme as well, and he may also find a DC with an aggressive mentality similar to what we saw last season and in 2007-2008. I get disgusted at the idea of the Giants ever having another DC with the mentality of a Perry Fewell or Tim Lewis.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by nick030567 View Post

                  I think it might be interpreted that way by some who want to see big changes in order to inspire hope or optimism but what if they truly feel that is the best option? You'd hope they'd be able to gauge whether or not that would be positive for the future of the team.
                  I don't know, man. I'm trying not to be emotional about this team but I'm done giving the FO (owner, GM, et al) the benefit of the doubt.

                  This team is fundamentally flawed in the way it is built, replete with contracts.

                  I do not think it's as simple as "Spags as HC would inspire these guys to win games." I believe we do not have talent at critical positions in today's NFL. And it's been that way for a very long time.

                  Reese's drafting speaks for itself. It's well below par. And it's not a small sample size either. It's 10 years.

                  I think if there is going to change, it needs to be systemic. I'm talking about operations all the way to the coaching staff. I like Spags but he's very replaceable.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by nick030567 View Post
                    I mean on the surface to some it may appear as half *** but the reality might be that he could be a good HC with a bad first stint similar to Belichek, someone who is good at motivating, has great preparation and game planning and is also good at making adjustments which shows that his ultimate goal is to win, not shove some fantasy system down his players throats that doesn't suit the players strengths. Plus he might even find an OC with a better scheme as well, and he may also find a DC with an aggressive mentality similar to what we saw last season and in 2007-2008. I get disgusted at the idea of the Giants ever having another DC with the mentality of a Perry Fewell or Tim Lewis.
                    I think the system is broken, not just a piece or two. I'm all for changing it entirely.

                    Oh and add Johnny Lynn to that list.

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                    • #25
                      I was with you until the part about "one of whom holds his shares because of childish interfamilial spite." Whatever that is......
                      No one remembers who came in second.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by buried_in_snow View Post

                        I don't know, man. I'm trying not to be emotional about this team but I'm done giving the FO (owner, GM, et al) the benefit of the doubt.

                        This team is fundamentally flawed in the way it is built, replete with contracts.

                        I do not think it's as simple as "Spags as HC would inspire these guys to win games." I believe we do not have talent at critical positions in today's NFL. And it's been that way for a very long time.

                        Reese's drafting speaks for itself. It's well below par. And it's not a small sample size either. It's 10 years.

                        I think if there is going to change, it needs to be systemic. I'm talking about operations all the way to the coaching staff. I like Spags but he's very replaceable.
                        Oh I totally understand where you're coming from and agree, I mean I agree with your sentiment that the team is fundamentally flawed and that should be on Reese who should be held accountable. But I do think that Reese has been decent when it comes to the draft IF you put an asterisk next to the names of players who had freak injuries that severely limited their careers and Reese should not be blamed for that, I think David Wilson would've been great for instance. In addition who would've predicted that Hakeem Nicks' career would've ended essentially after only 3 seasons, the guy was growing into a phenomenal player at the time of his injury in 2012. Victor Cruz is another, I think his head got in the way just as much as his injury though as soon as he associated himself with tools like Jay-Z. Kenny Phillips is another player who could've been very good. But I do agree that his handling of the trenches is inexcusable and has detrimentally hurt this team. I just don't understand how you know you have an immobile pocket passer in Eli yet stick him with a turnstile of an O-line season after season, with a running game that consistently loses yardage.

                        I truly believe that the Giants could've won at least one more Super Bowl during Eli's tenure if it wasn't for his handling of the trenches on both sides, it's still possible if things could be corrected quickly because there is a lot of young talent on the team, just need some key additions over the next two offseasons BUT I understand your sentiment, how do we trust Reese to get this done? I would think he has proved himself to be unable to accomplish that. I'd be more forgiving towards Reese if he didn't tie the success of this season to players on the O-line who are subpar and have proven since 2014 (Jerry) that they aren't starter material. Add in Hart who was a question mark in potential, and Flowers who is apparently mentally slow or is just unbelievably careless and lazy and it becomes 100% inexcusable that he would stick this football team which had such potential with a unit that handicapped the team last season, and led to three losing seasons in a row (2013,2014,2014 and I'd add that they were the reason the team didn't make the playoffs in 2012). So I should've clarified that I was kind of vying for SPags to get the job, but I am very open to them firing Reese. Obviously, you shouldn't force an HC on a new GM though.
                        Last edited by nick030567; 10-12-2017, 08:23 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by buried_in_snow View Post

                          I don't know, man. I'm trying not to be emotional about this team but I'm done giving the FO (owner, GM, et al) the benefit of the doubt.

                          This team is fundamentally flawed in the way it is built, replete with contracts.

                          I do not think it's as simple as "Spags as HC would inspire these guys to win games." I believe we do not have talent at critical positions in today's NFL. And it's been that way for a very long time.

                          Reese's drafting speaks for itself. It's well below par. And it's not a small sample size either. It's 10 years.

                          I think if there is going to change, it needs to be systemic. I'm talking about operations all the way to the coaching staff. I like Spags but he's very replaceable.
                          I must add that I guess I feel differently about Spags being replaceable because over the last few seasons I have generally only made the time to watch Giants games (so i've watched very little football) and I'm still scarred over watching Perry Fewell vanilla/soft defenses. Ben McAdoo has become the Perry Fewell of O-Coordinators. I wouldn't have said that about him in 2014 and 2015 though. I guess TC had more impact on the offense than I knew.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by buried_in_snow View Post
                            Well stated.

                            How scary would it be if they fire McAdoo at season's end only to keep Reese and promote Spags to HC?

                            A very likely scenario.
                            We need new tires on this bus, not retreads.
                            Everyone has the right to be stupid. Some just abuse the privilege.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by jomo View Post
                              I was with you until the part about "one of whom holds his shares because of childish interfamilial spite." Whatever that is......
                              I'm talking about Steve Tisch, jomo. The only reason he owns half of the Giants is because his dad, Bob, was Rozelle's buddy and Little Nephew Tim Mara and Wellington Mara hated each other. Therefore, when Little Yoko Ono Tim died, there was nothing in place to keep the Giants in the Mara family - or even to allow the Mara family to have a controlling percentage (51%) which would have made all the difference in the world. Because of supposed estate tax burdens Bob Tisch weaseled his way into the NFL for a mere $70 million (he was a billionaire and the Mara family had invested $500). Conflicting interests at the top begin.

                              Tim Mara (the senior) was involved in the Giants operation until his death in 1959 (the golden years). At that point ownership became vested in Wellington and Jack (Wellington's big brother) who always pretty much got along. But the Gints lost three NFL championships in a row and the first dark ages for the franchise began.

                              From 1964 to 1980 - TWO winning seasons (scarred my youth). Guess what happened at the start of that dark hole? Little Tim, Jack's son, inherited his 50%. So now you have Uncle Wellington dealing with his little snot-nosed nephew. In full public view, from that point until Little Timmy sold his shares to Bob Tisch in 1991, the Giants organization was in conflict. Luckily the drafting of LT, the hiring of George Young and Bill Parcells allowed the Giants to win a couple superbowls in the 80's even though the conflicts at the top still existed between Wellington and Little Tim.

                              The fact that the Mara family allowed half of the ownership to pass to outsiders is unfathomable to me. The fact that no provisions were in place to keep the organization moving forward in the same direction under their control is just plain stupid. That's why I say that Steve Tisch owns his half because of childish interfamilial spite. I wonder what will happen in the future to the relationship between these two families as the NYFG hits rock bottom and the Eli Era ends. History always has a way of repeating itself, or so they say.

                              Now - at a time when a unified ownership voice is needed - the two inheritors remain silent - the teflon general manager remains silent - the HC speaks of reality vs perception and alienates players. Nobody moving in the same direction. Doom.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Very well thought out and written, Pathas. 4 hours? I would gladly do that as therapy because I have never been so wrong about my teams season as this one. Glum and slouched watching--irrelevance, just like 2013. Ugh!
                                It is definitely a combination of missed draft choices, missed FA signing opportunities(I wanted Blount and Whitworth badly--lets win now! LOL) and the entire organization flailing with the oars, instead of being in the boat together in sync.
                                The best point you made, and one that has gone largely unnoticed by press and media, is the ownership. Its obvious to me that there isn't clearly defined roles. Yes, the TC firing was ugly(I think Mara didn't want to do it, Tisch did) and whether it was the right thing to do or not isn't the point, its that the ownership, GM, and coach do not appear to be on the same page. Not the Wellington era, which wasn't always a winner but he was a stabilizing force in later years.

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