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John Mara....You offically blew it....

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  • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post

    The questions I have MS is what is our identity under Reese? Who are the NY Giants?
    That question hasn't been answered for years. They have no identity, discipline, structure, and are not a winning organization. In other words, they are an absolute mess. 2 playoff appearances in the last 9 years. 1 winning season in the about to be 5 seasons. The constants over that tenure are Reese and Eli Manning. McAdoo is just a bad idea. Nothing more or less. They have ****ed up for years by not blowing this thing up. If they don't do it at the end of this season, I'm not sure that they ever will. The only thing about this that I agree with MH about in all of this is that the owners have their heads up their asses when it comes to being proactive about anything other than the bottom line.

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    • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post
      Folks think it's a standard deal to just "Fire JR". Well JR isn't just any NFL GM. He was raised in the Giants organization, almost right out of college. Jerry Reese is family in the Giants organization. He's also a good football man. He was trained by Ernie Accorsi. He came up through the ranks.

      JR may go, but I doubt he'll be fired. It's more likely he resigns. McAdoo is fair game to be fired. JR is a much tougher deal. I'm actually surprised there is so little appreciation for a lifetime Giant like Jerry Reese around here......Well maybe not.
      You may be right. But from the outside, we don't know what his contributions were under Accorsi. Maybe, presumably and to your point, really important ones! All we can do now is assess the current situation and what we think needs to happen to get the Giants back on track.

      And the buck starts at the top. If people are failing underneath JR, it's JR's responsibility to get them back on track ... or fire them. Too many holdovers from the previous regime. Bad decision promoting Mac. Eli's current contract and no-trade clause. A lot of guys being brought in who don't seem to give a hoot about what it means to be a Giant. Poor drafts under JR's watch.

      You can like a guy who performed really well 6 years ago. But if he hasn't been performing well in the last 6 years, when do you decide it's time to let him go for the betterment of the organization?
      sigpic

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      • It's like Eli... you appreciate him for everything he's meant to the organization. But the time comes to move on from him, for x, y, and z reasons. At the end of the day, it's a business. No player, staff, or manager in the front office.. is above the organization. Sometimes you need to make tough decisions for the long term health of the business.
        sigpic

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        • Originally posted by NYinNJ View Post

          Under Coughlin, I think the team definitely had an identity, at least from 2007-2012 approximately. Maybe not exactly the identity that Coughlin would have wanted, but it was there. Commentators used to say that the Giants were a terrible home favorite, but an amazing road underdog.

          Looking back, it's easy to see those championships as a fluke, or getting lucky, but I don't think they really were. The giants were a dangerous team during those years, even though they under-achieved at times. Concretely, they had a pass rush that could be dominant, and a clutch quarterback.

          On offense, the emphasis shifted from a dominant run game to the passing game with Nicks and Cruz, as the offensive line declined and Eli got better. So it wasn't perfectly consistent, but it was enough.

          Since then, I don't see much of an identity at all. They seem to have bought into the concept of a pass-first, quick strike sort of offense, with a lot of "weapons." It obviously hasn't worked. The thing that confuses me is why the offense has been so much worse under McAdoo as HC than it was under Coughlin with McAdoo as the coordinator for a couple of years. I don't know enough about the inner workings of the offense and the team to speculate as to why that would be.

          But there is a huge difference. If I am getting this right, the offense was 28th in the league under Gilbride in 2013, in terms of points scored, then 13th and 6th with the new coordinator. Last year they were 26th, this year so far I think they are 30th. That is very strange. Why would promoting McAdoo from coordinator to HC have that type of impact on the offense, after two years of improvement with him as coordinator?

          On defense, they had no talent left in 2015. Just an awful year on that side of the ball. It felt like DRC was the only one who could make a play. So they went out and spent a ton of money in free agency to try to recover from that. Maybe more patience would have been better in the long run? Some of the players they picked up are good individually, but a team needs a core, ideally one that is developed by the organization.

          It's a bit like how the Yankees are always bad when they have nothing but high-priced veterans from other teams, but very good when they build around core players from their own system.

          But maybe this coach just really sucks? Or he wasn't ready to make the change from coordinator to HC? It seems that way at the moment.
          The results on offense speak for themselves. McAdoo took an offense that wasn't perfect but was dangerous and he neutered into what we've seen the last 2 years.

          The bottom line is he thought he could transform our offense into one that could play any style of football needed to win ball games and he's failed miserably.

          I'm done with McAdoo. He needs to go.

          As for Tom - yes we had our identity with Gilbride's offense, but it still was a team of inconsistency and lacked discipline.

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          • Originally posted by SG88 View Post

            That question hasn't been answered for years. They have no identity, discipline, structure, and are not a winning organization. In other words, they are an absolute mess. 2 playoff appearances in the last 9 years. 1 winning season in the about to be 5 seasons. The constants over that tenure are Reese and Eli Manning. McAdoo is just a bad idea. Nothing more or less. They have ****ed up for years by not blowing this thing up. If they don't do it at the end of this season, I'm not sure that they ever will. The only thing about this that I agree with MH about in all of this is that the owners have their heads up their ***** when it comes to being proactive about anything other than the bottom line.
            McAdoo clearly ****ed up the offense, and he should go for that reason alone.

            The fact that his players don't respect him only cements the fact that the Giants must change their head coach.

            With all the crap that's gone on this season I really wouldn't mind to see the Giants tank the rest of the way to ensure they clean house.

            And while that goes against everything I felt about the Giants in 30 something years, it's clear the Giants have other things than winning football games on their mind.

            Once they get themselves straightened out, maybe I'll give a crap again.

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            • I wanted a defensive minded HC, Fassell, Coughlin and McAdoo, are all offensive minded.1997 to 2017, time for a change..

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              • I also think those Giants defenses had an impact on the league in a way that most teams don't. They beat probably the best team ever in the Superbowl, and then essentially did it again. That doesn't go unnoticed. They did it with pass rushers who could get to the quarterback without the aid of blitzing. Teams have put a premium on having that type of player ever since (on the Dline especially).

                Of course, one could say that the same thing would have probably happened anyway, in an increasingly pass-friendly league (defenses cannot afford to blitz a lot, and it's hard to cover receivers for more than a couple of seconds). But I do think those Giants teams played a role in that. Including the "Nascar package," which some teams still use. I can't recall if that concept actually originated on the '07 team, but they certainly popularized it. And again in 2011. Seattle also has used it. Another dominant, Superbowl-winning defense.

                So anyway. If you have a coach, a quarterback, an Oline and a Dline, you can win. Those Giants teams had those things for the most part.

                That's the problem with "weapons." They are not very useful if you are not set at coach, QB, and in the trenches.

                I'd be very hesitant about trying to build a team around Beckham, largely for that reason. He's great, but paying a dynamic receiver QB money doesn't strike me as a great place to start a rebuild (speaking purely as an outside observer).
                Last edited by NYinNJ; 11-03-2017, 12:07 PM.

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                • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post

                  The questions I have MS is what is our identity under Reese? Who are the NY Giants?

                  If your GM does not have a vision or the power to hire a coach to help him achieve his vision, then it seems we are the result.

                  Weíve been a team of inconsistency that got hot at the right time twice and was lucky enough to win 2 Super Bowls.

                  Thatís who we have been during Coughlinís run and we look no different now except we now have a high school looking offense.

                  Mara made it clear there was a divide between coaching and the front office towards the end of Tomís career. I think itís time to give total control to a football guy.

                  Iím tired of watching the Giants embarrass themselves over and over.
                  Well that's an indictment of the organization Rosie. The GM does not have the power to hire a HC. He has to live with whoever Mr. Mara hires.
                  I would be shocked if McAdoo was the guy JR wanted. Totally shocked. He's an extension of the previous HC who was failing in his last 3 years.

                  And may I remind you that TC was failing with a franchise QB. Almost all teams who struggle for more than a year or so, do because they have no QB.

                  As I said.......The key problem with this team is coaching. JR is NOT excused from responsibility. But coaching is the main shortcoming with our team.
                  Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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                  • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post

                    Well that's an indictment of the organization Rosie. The GM does not have the power to hire a HC. He has to live with whoever Mr. Mara hires.
                    I would be shocked if McAdoo was the guy JR wanted. Totally shocked. He's an extension of the previous HC who was failing in his last 3 years.

                    And may I remind you that TC was failing with a franchise QB. Almost all teams who struggle for more than a year or so, do because they have no QB.

                    As I said.......The key problem with this team is coaching. JR is NOT excused from responsibility. But coaching is the main shortcoming with our team.
                    TC's failing with a franchise QB had nothing to do with the **** defense that JR gave him?

                    smh

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                    • Well, the offense had improved drastically with McAdoo as coordinator. The defense had collapsed totally at the same time, due mostly to lack of talent. So they promoted McAdoo, then went out and spent like crazy on the defense.

                      I guess the thought process was something like: the offense will continue to improve with continuity, and the defense needs a huge talent upgrade.

                      Instead the offense collapsed, and now the defense has done the same. I have to believe that JR played a big role in making those decisions.

                      Does anything else really make sense? Wouldn't it be odd to overrule JR in favor of what Coughlin wanted, when Coughlin was getting fired, and JR was not? That seems like a stretch to me.

                      I think it's more likely that JR/Mara simply kept what seemed to be working, in the name of "continuity," and tried to fix what wasn't working with a spending spree.
                      Last edited by NYinNJ; 11-03-2017, 02:08 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Roosevelt View Post

                        McAdoo clearly ****ed up the offense, and he should go for that reason alone.

                        The fact that his players don't respect him only cements the fact that the Giants must change their head coach.

                        With all the crap that's gone on this season I really wouldn't mind to see the Giants tank the rest of the way to ensure they clean house.

                        And while that goes against everything I felt about the Giants in 30 something years, it's clear the Giants have other things than winning football games on their mind.

                        Once they get themselves straightened out, maybe I'll give a crap again.
                        The giants organization does have other things in mind than winning football games. They mainly care about the bottom line. I am actually OK with that considering that it is a business before it is anything else. Just don't give me this bs lip service about caring about winning. NYG is a billion dollar business that sells itself. The only way the owners will make drastic changes is if people stop putting money in their pockets. The giants are also a very reactive franchise. They aren't proactive about anything. They only react when they have absolutely no choice but to. That kind of thinking has filtered down from ownership to the locker room.

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                        • Originally posted by SG88 View Post

                          The giants organization does have other things in mind than winning football games. They mainly care about the bottom line. I am actually OK with that considering that it is a business before it is anything else. Just don't give me this bs lip service about caring about winning. NYG is a billion dollar business that sells itself. The only way the owners will make drastic changes is if people stop putting money in their pockets. The giants are also a very reactive franchise. They aren't proactive about anything. They only react when they have absolutely no choice but to. That kind of thinking has filtered down from ownership to the locker room.
                          Well, I'm sure they care about winning too.

                          And I'm sure that when the team is winning, they make more money ....

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                          • Originally posted by TCHOF View Post

                            TC's failing with a franchise QB had nothing to do with the **** defense that JR gave him?

                            smh
                            I know it's important for you to believe that.
                            Admit nothing. Deny everything. Make counter accusations.

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                            • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post

                              Well that's an indictment of the organization Rosie. The GM does not have the power to hire a HC. He has to live with whoever Mr. Mara hires.
                              I would be shocked if McAdoo was the guy JR wanted. Totally shocked. He's an extension of the previous HC who was failing in his last 3 years.

                              And may I remind you that TC was failing with a franchise QB. Almost all teams who struggle for more than a year or so, do because they have no QB.

                              As I said.......The key problem with this team is coaching. JR is NOT excused from responsibility. But coaching is the main shortcoming with our team.
                              I'm in total agreement. If it wasn't for Reese's FA haul last year last season would have been a total disaster as McAdoo completely destroyed our offensive. And now it seems he's affected our defense as our 3 starting CB's all have been benched or suspended by him.

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                              • Originally posted by Morehead State View Post

                                If you go 50% in ROUND 1 your lucky...let alone the later rounds.
                                We Giants fans will pick apart every pick and find all the busts, it's natural. But "busts" are very common in the crap shoot that is the NFL draft. Just go look at all of Bill Belichick's busts. They are many. These are amateur college players....they are prospects. No one is a lock.

                                As I said, there is no doubt that JR had a rough stretch several years ago, but his drafts the last several years have been strong.
                                Again, you're missing the point. Define strong. IMO I don't care who he's drafted if there's no balance and/or way to bring out the best in that player. His O line picks have been mediocre at best and he never created any depth. What good does it do to have Engram or Gallman when they can't get or do anything with the ball?

                                Also, other teams may have busts but they do something to correct it, not cross their fingers and be so arrogant to assume a pathetic group of players will suddenly get better after 2-3 years of being some of the worst in the league (ie Flowers, Hart, Cruz, etc). I also think he made a big mistake with JPP but we can wait another year of mediocrity or for another injury to occur before we can say for certain.

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