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  • #16
    Originally posted by Martin View Post
    I think its possible as you have Snacks as NT and JPP would be good at the DE. (his pass rush stinks anyhow) I don't know about O Vernon though. The LB's would have to be revamped FA / draft etc..
    That’s a great point about Jpp. He is still and has always been good against the run, which is what is needed by a DE in the 3-4. He would transition nice I bet.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TE88 View Post
      Switching to a 3-4 is a meaningless statement.

      people really need to get this 3-4 / 4-3 thing out of their heads.
      Oh and why is that? This is a discussion forum, by all means give us something to discuss.
      LT (132.5) -> Strahan (141.5) -> Osi (65) -> Tuck (60.5) -> JPP (50) -> ???
      "Next man up"

      "I am a nasty football player, I get after people. That is something that I am very proud of. I am out there and I am physical every play, making sure that the guy across from me wants to quit." - Adam Bisnowaty

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post

        Oh and why is that? This is a discussion forum, by all means give us something to discuss.
        what TE88 is saying is that 3-4 and 4-3 base defenses aren’t nearly as different as many believe them to be

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        • #19
          Our DL should transition well. Tomlinson, Harrison, Pierre Paul are actually pretty ideal in terms of size and athleticism.

          We have been playing the 4-3 UNDER front as a base D for how long now??

          It is basically a 3-4 ODD look with a few tweaks like no more "open ends" since both sides will be sealed by outside linebackers.
          Easy transition for most of our defensive personnel except the MIKE LB and the SAM LB, which was occupied by Kennard for a couple of years. We will ask the SAM to blitz a lot more especially in Bettcher's scheme. Kennard has not shown to be a terror off the edge, so we will need a huge upgrade on the strong side.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post

            Oh and why is that? This is a discussion forum, by all means give us something to discuss.
            It just doesn’t mean anything. You have 3-4 and 4-3 fronts all over the NFL that have the same responsibilities built into them, which makes them function the same way. The Giants have run plenty of 3-4 type looks. Lots of 4-3 under as well if I’m not mistaken - take a look at the positions in that front and compare to what people think of as a 3-4..

            3-4/4-3 has no real bearing on how the front actually functions. Concepts from both of the classic 3-4/4-3 Defenses are built into all defensive fronts league wide.

            really all it means is how many guys are standing up. The sport has evolved considerably and now he responsibilities that were employed in both styles of front exist everywhere

            Wish that I could dig up the old posts from years ago on this as we had a lot of good information in there
            Last edited by TE88; 01-24-2018, 04:06 PM.

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            • #21
              I have been against trading down, but I am starting to think it makes the most sense, especially with the way Gettleman has been standing by Eli in interviews and insisting he is the guy. If they don't take a QB (I think they should take Rosen or Darnold) Giants could trade down with the Jets or Denver and get a couple of extra picks.

              The Giants are going to need to overhaul the front 7 if they switch to a 3-4, so it would make sense to gather as many picks as possible because this roster needs players.

              My scenario would be. Trade 2nd overall to NYJ for 6th overall, 2nd round pick, 4th round pick, and 2019 1st rounder. If the Jets want Rosen or Darnold, that will be the price they need to pay.


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              • #22
                3-4 with our LBers hahahahahaha

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by barran21 View Post
                  3-4 with our LBers hahahahahaha
                  Hell a 4-3 with our lbs is a joke, lol
                  Come check the G-Fambulance and The Scarf Soldiers every home game in Lot L6, and like us on facebook and instagam 'NYG Scarf Soldiers'

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    For our friends who think 4-3 and 3-4 are the same

                    [i]"etting to the quarterback has never been more important than it is today in the NFL. Modern passing schemes get rid of the ball so quickly, to so many targets, in such complicated route packages, NFL secondaries can't possibly stop them for four quarters.

                    That's why the best pass defense isn't defense at all: It's attacking the quarterback.

                    There are many different ways to bring heat: inside, outside, from the line, from the blitz, out of a 3-4 or 4-3 alignment. But what's the difference between all these? What are the advantages and disadvantages? What's the most effective way to rush the modern NFL passer?



                    Understanding Gaps

                    If you've played any of the older Madden video games that feature John Madden's commentary, you know the phrase "it all starts with the offensive line." He meant that in terms of offensive success, but defenses key off the offensive line, too:

                    When the offense is running the ball, the gap between every offensive lineman is daylight for a running back. Defenses have to make sure that no matter which gap the running back goes through, they have a defender ready to make the stop.

                    When the offense is passing the ball, though, these gaps are daylight for pass-rushers.
                    The spaces between the center and either guard are called the "A" gaps. The spaces between the guards and tackles are called the "B" gaps. The spaces on either side of the tackles are the "C" gaps. We can think of the gap outside of a blocking tight end as a "D" gap.

                    When a linebacker rushes the passer through one of these gaps, that's what kind of blitz it is. A linebacker rushing the quarterback from between the right guard and right tackle is a "B Gap Blitz."



                    Line Alignment & Gap Responsibility

                    Defenses align themselves based on the offensive line. Each lineman plays a different "technique," indexed off of the position of the offensive line:

                    Lining up directly across from the center, guard, tackle and tight end are the zero-, two-, four- and six-technique positions. Lining up in the gaps are the one-, three-, five-, seven- and nine-technique positions. Where you see an "i" in the alignment, that's lining up in between the offensive lineman's head and shoulder—in line with his eye.



                    The 3-4 Pass Rush

                    In a traditional 3-4, the nose tackle plays a "zero technique" and is responsible for covering both A gaps. The ends play a "four technique," and are each responsible for covering a B and C gap:

                    The prototypical 3-4 two-gap nose tackle is a 320-plus-pound widebody—a space eater who can take on a double-team and still stop a running back. This player is rarely expected to generate any kind of pass rush. The New England Patriots' Vince Wilfork is a great example.

                    3-4 defensive ends must be true two-way players, typically 280 pounds or more. Their prime responsibility is to stop the run, but they must also have the ability to beat offensive tackles and sack the quarterback. Few players can truly dominate in both roles, but Justin Smith of the San Francisco 49ers does.

                    The pass-rushing stars of the 3-4, though, are not the defensive linemen. The size and strength of the men up front allows the linebackers to attack any of the gaps with almost any number and combination of linebackers.

                    The best pure pass-rushing linebacker typically plays on the right (ROLB), attacking the blind side of the quarterback from the outside edge. The LOLB also brings heat on the strong side, but he may have to fight through a tight end, depending on the protection. DeMarcus Ware of the Dallas Cowboys and LaMarr Woodley of the Pittsburgh Steelers are two of the best 3-4 outside 'backers in the business.

                    The biggest threat the 3-4 poses to offenses, though, might be the two interior linebackers. Though they can help pick up the coverage slack left by the blitzing outside guys or blitz in combination with them, they can combine to execute one of the most difficult-to-stop blitzes in football: the Double A Gap Blitz.

                    If you remember the gaps above, you'll immediately understand what this is: the two inside linebackers both blitz up an A gap. Depending on what the nose tackle does and if the tailback is kept in to pass protect, the Double A Gap Blitz often results in a linebacker one-on-one with a tailback, a completely unblocked linebacker or even two unblocked blitzers.

                    The results can be devastating, as Dom Capers' Green Bay Packers demonstrated against the Patriots. When the nose tackle moves to the outside, drawing the right guard away, the two ILBs cross each other in front of the center, who can only block one of them. ILB Desmond Bishop is left free to deliver the sack.



                    3-4 Pass Rush Drawbacks

                    It's well known that a weakness of the 3-4 is the "world theory": There are only so many natural two-gap 3-4 nose tackles in the world, and if you don't have one you can't stop the run. To an extent, it's true of 3-4 DEs as well: not many ends can overpower tackles and tight ends in the run game yet still have the speed and technique needed to sack the quarterback.

                    Without quality ends, the pass rush must come from the blitz.

                    Relying on the four linebackers to provide the pass rush is a dangerous game. Linebackers must also share coverage responsibilities, and too-aggressive blitzing can be exploited by good quarterbacks.

                    Large, strong inside linebackers are crucial, as second-level blockers like tight ends, fullbacks and pulling guards are hard for two-gap linemen to occupy. ILBs must be able to shed these blocks quickly in order to make plays.



                    The 4-3 Pass Rush

                    There are several varieties of the 4-3 pass rush, notably the "over" and "under" fronts. Both are traditionally played with a "one gap" philosophy, meaning each lineman is responsible for one running gap/rushing lane.

                    In the 4-3 Over, the strength of the defensive line is shifted towards the strong side of the offense. The "over" tackle plays between the strong-side guard and tackle, while the "nose" tackle plays the one-technique on the weak side. In this chart, the right (pass-rushing) DE plays a six-technique, but depending on scheme, he could play a seven- or even nine-technique. The strong-side DE plays a seven-technique role just outside the tight end.

                    The nose tackle—built similarly to a 3-4 NT, like the Baltimore Ravens' Haloti Ngata—will typically draw a double-team from the center and weak-side guard. That leaves the over tackle one-on-one with a guard; as the over tackle is a three-technique DT with great inside pass-rush ability, like the Detroit Lions' Ndamukong Suh, that's dangerous for the offense.

                    If the defensive tackles are of ideal size and ability, the offensive line is stuck being unable to double-team either without risking the defensive ends coming free. The ideal right (blind-side, pass-rushing) 4-3 defensive end is just big enough to play the run with his hand down, but tremendously explosive and a tenacious pass-rusher. The Minnesota Vikings' Jared Allen is the ideal: a terrifying pass-rusher off the edge with speed and moves to spare, but all the size (6'4", 265 pounds) and strength to stop the run.

                    The 4-3 Under, on the other hand, puts the strength of the defensive line on the weak side of the offense. The pass-rushing three-technique slots between the weak-side guard and weak-side tackle. The right ("rush") DE is lined up wide as a seven- or nine-technique and is free to pin his ears back and rush the passer with abandon, a la the Indianapolis Colts' Dwight Freeney (though the Colts are transitioning to a 3-4 this summer).

                    Often, the 4-3 Under is used as the foundation of the "Tampa Two," a one-gap 4-3 defensive scheme where each of the front seven is solely responsible for a single run/rush gap (D/C/B/A/A/B/C). This puts a heavy burden on the weak-side linebacker, who must stop the run behind the pass-rushing RDE and cover a large zone in front of the deep-dropping MLB. It's partially because of the ability of former Tampa Bay Buccaneers All-Pro LB Derrick Brooks that the Tampa Two was created.

                    In either alignment, the 4-3 defense is ideally suited to generate pass rush from the front four with minimal blitzing. While the 3-4 allows for great complexity, confounding offenses with disguised blitzes and coverages, the 4-3 allows a defense to drop seven men into coverage and still get pressure—an unbeatable combination.



                    4-3 Pass Rush Drawbacks

                    Whether Over or Under, one-gap or two-, the 4-3 rush defensive end is a premium position. The Buffalo Bills just signed Mario Williams to an astounding six-year contract with $50 million of guaranteed money because he has the vanishingly rare combination of size, speed and skill to get double-digit sacks without allowing double-digit yardage every time the offense runs at him.

                    In a one-gap 4-3, maintaining gap discipline is extremely important. There is less flexibility in how you attack the quarterback, because overcommitting or excessive misdirection allows the offense to capitalize by running into the empty spaces. Suh and the Lions were repeatedly victimized by opponents running through the gap Suh abandoned while trying to get upfield.

                    4-3 linebackers are easy to come by, but outstanding ones are not. The pure run-stuffing MLB who can clean up any gap and make the tackle is a vanishing breed, as the players with the size, strength and speed to play it in college are often moved to OLB or DE and made to blitz.

                    Also, 4-3 outside linebackers have a hard time making an impact; strong-siders often spend most of their reps shadowing the TE, and weak-siders are increasingly left on the bench in favor of a third cornerback.



                    The Cutting Edge

                    The Lions and Philadelphia Eagles play what's commonly called a "Wide Nine" alignment, where the RDE in a 4-3 Over plays from an extremely wide nine-technique position; this stretches the offensive line. Combine great size and depth up front with a get-upfield-at-all-costs approach, and the defense gets maximum pressure with maximum coverage (and minimum blitzing). Unfortunately, the "wide nine" also exacerbates the 4-3's weakness in stopping the run.
                    see
                    Teams like the Patriots have been begun eschewing strict 3-4 and 4-3 labels, playing a hybrid, or "Amoeba," defense. In these defenses, versatile players may put a hand down or play standing up in almost any combination imaginable.

                    The Patriots will even occasionally forgo linemen entirely and run an apparent 0-6-5. This takes the confusion and the misdirection of the 3-4 to the next level, but it also requires extreme intelligence and versatility from its defenders (and coaches!).

                    As these new-wave defenses continue their innovative assaults on the quarterbacks of the NFL, it'll be up to offensive coordinators to adapt and adjust. Perhaps we'll see a return to old-school power running to victimize the aggressive front fours of the modern 4-3 and overwhelm the misdirection and masterminding of the modern 3-4"
                    Come check the G-Fambulance and The Scarf Soldiers every home game in Lot L6, and like us on facebook and instagam 'NYG Scarf Soldiers'

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                    • #25
                      I'd be fine if we switched. A 34 defense offers more versatility. But at the end of the day, today's NFL is about rushing the passer and getting home with 4. Blitzing will not beat today's best offenses.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Gee718 View Post
                        I wonder why the trolls don’t start trouble in this thread
                        Well here you are...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Jmulroy99 View Post

                          what TE88 is saying is that 3-4 and 4-3 base defenses aren’t nearly as different as many believe them to be
                          They might not be all that different in the grand scheme of things, 7 guys trying to stop the run and get to the passer and cover backs and TEs; but they have massive impact on players as individuals.

                          Take a look at Robert Mathis with the Colts when they switched over. He spent his career as a DE in a 4-3, with his hand in the dirt. He was really good, made the Pro Bowl 3 times and put up double digit sacks 4 times, averaging 9.25 sacks a year. They switched to a 3-4 and he put up 8 sacks, decent number. The next year when Mathis got the hang of playing off the ball he had 19.5 sacks, 8 more than any other year in the league and was an All Pro for the first time ever as a 32 year old 11 year vet.

                          We can agree to disagree on how similar the scheme is for 3-4 vs 4-3 but the impact on individual players in undeniably massive. The move for Vernon could be huge for him. I think another position that is very different would be the Mike with BJ Goodson. In the 3-4 his role would be much better suited for his strengths. He would have less coverage responsibilities and be able to use his strength has the hammer in the middle.

                          Saying it makes no difference or that we should remove 3-4 and 4-3 from our heads is foolish.
                          LT (132.5) -> Strahan (141.5) -> Osi (65) -> Tuck (60.5) -> JPP (50) -> ???
                          "Next man up"

                          "I am a nasty football player, I get after people. That is something that I am very proud of. I am out there and I am physical every play, making sure that the guy across from me wants to quit." - Adam Bisnowaty

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post
                            With the hiring of James Bettcher (Who? lol) as the DC it appears we could switch back to a 3-4 defense. It has been decades since we ran a 3-4 here but it is entirely possible. According to Dan Schneier (247sports) we are pretty well set if we were to transition.

                            https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-g...need-114119096
                            (Good article with lots of insight and info on Bettcher)

                            "The Giants need to revamp their linebacker corps anyway, and the majority of their 2017 starters are set to become free agents. Pierre-Paul can easily transition to the 5-technique defensive end position in the 3-4 base. Damon Harrison is a natural fit for the nose tackle position he used to play in the Jets' 3-4 scheme. Dalvin Tomlinson played in the 4-3 version of the 3-technique defensive tackle position in Steve Spagnuolo's 2017 defensive scheme, but he can easily transition to a 3-technique tackle position in Bettcher's scheme. Vernon could transition to outside linebacker, a position where some NFL analysts believe he is best fit for in the first place. B.J. Goodson can stick in the middle as one of two inside linebackers, Devon Kennard could transition to outside linebacker as he has already played both defensive end and outside linebacker in the Giants' 4-3 base scheme, and the secondary will be unphased by the schematic changes."

                            I kind of doubt we will transition but would love to see what that does to this team. Maybe we would even draft a LB before the 5th round. When Olivier Vernon was coming out of college it was thought that he would transition from small DE to an OLB in a 3-4. It's not like he is setting the world on fire at DE, while he is good I think OLB in a 3-4 could really put his strengths to better use. Snacks was a NT with the Jets and JPP could handle the 3-4 DE role. The other side is a question mark and we need to fix LB anyway.

                            Anyone think we will do the switch?
                            I don't think it will work. Backers aren't good enough even when healthy

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bluesbrother View Post

                              I don't think it will work. Backers aren't good enough even when healthy
                              They aren't good enough to play 4-3 either lol. Either way we will need to fix up the LB position. With only Goodson left we will need to draft/sign an entire new LB unit anyway. We can look to sign Demario Davis from the Jets, a good pass rushing ILB that is a tackle machine, bring back Kennard, Sam Acho from the Bears would be a good signing, Navorro Bowman is a free agent too. There are options.

                              Vernon - Goodson - Demario Davis - Navorro Bowman would be a very good combo IMO. Who knows what will happen, but either 4-3 or 3-4 we need to sign some LBs.
                              LT (132.5) -> Strahan (141.5) -> Osi (65) -> Tuck (60.5) -> JPP (50) -> ???
                              "Next man up"

                              "I am a nasty football player, I get after people. That is something that I am very proud of. I am out there and I am physical every play, making sure that the guy across from me wants to quit." - Adam Bisnowaty

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post
                                With the hiring of James Bettcher (Who? lol) as the DC it appears we could switch back to a 3-4 defense. It has been decades since we ran a 3-4 here but it is entirely possible. According to Dan Schneier (247sports) we are pretty well set if we were to transition.

                                https://247sports.com/nfl/new-york-g...need-114119096
                                (Good article with lots of insight and info on Bettcher)

                                "The Giants need to revamp their linebacker corps anyway, and the majority of their 2017 starters are set to become free agents. Pierre-Paul can easily transition to the 5-technique defensive end position in the 3-4 base. Damon Harrison is a natural fit for the nose tackle position he used to play in the Jets' 3-4 scheme. Dalvin Tomlinson played in the 4-3 version of the 3-technique defensive tackle position in Steve Spagnuolo's 2017 defensive scheme, but he can easily transition to a 3-technique tackle position in Bettcher's scheme. Vernon could transition to outside linebacker, a position where some NFL analysts believe he is best fit for in the first place. B.J. Goodson can stick in the middle as one of two inside linebackers, Devon Kennard could transition to outside linebacker as he has already played both defensive end and outside linebacker in the Giants' 4-3 base scheme, and the secondary will be unphased by the schematic changes."

                                I kind of doubt we will transition but would love to see what that does to this team. Maybe we would even draft a LB before the 5th round. When Olivier Vernon was coming out of college it was thought that he would transition from small DE to an OLB in a 3-4. It's not like he is setting the world on fire at DE, while he is good I think OLB in a 3-4 could really put his strengths to better use. Snacks was a NT with the Jets and JPP could handle the 3-4 DE role. The other side is a question mark and we need to fix LB anyway.

                                Anyone think we will do the switch?
                                Haha.

                                People still think Bill Parcels 3-4 exists in the NFL? a base 3-4 and 4-3 is rare these days. A nickle set is the 'new' base. There will be no difference

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