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  • Are we converting to a 3-4 defense?

    Researching some DL and LBs in the upcoming draft and realized I don't know what kind of D we'll be running next year. I've heard Bettcher ran a 3-4 in AZ. Has there been any mention on whether or not he plans on bringing the 3-4 to NY? We're so weak at LB it's hard to imagine us converting, but figured I'd ask.
    NFL Draft (Realistic Hope):

    Rd 1
    Garrett Bolles - OT
    David Njoku - TE
    Zach Cunningham - OLB

  • #2
    I suppose having Harrison already on the roster is the key first step. He did it well for the Jets. The rest seems like a poor fit, between Vernon being undersized, and JPP being handicapped for potentially more tackling responsibilities. I've read some suggestion about moving one or both to LB. Either way, there has to be major changes in that unit - this could be an "excuse" to go in that direction.

    Comment


    • #3
      http://boards.giants.com/forum/new-y...witch-to-a-3-4


      From about a month ago. Like many threads it got completely side tracked into a debate whether 3-4 is even a thing and whether it matters since teams run nickel a lot.

      So before the same thing happens here I'll chime in and say that nothing official (that I have heard) has been said about the base D yet. It is assumed by most people that we will be switching. I imagine we will switch as well since that is what Bettcher has run everywhere he has gone. Why would we get a 3-4 DC that has exclusively coached in a 3-4 in the NFL and then not run a 3-4? As of last week Damon Harrison said he didn't know if they would be asked to switch but said he could and would do what ever is needed.

      With that said I think obviously Harrison is a great DT and was one of the best in the league as a 3-4 NT for the Jets. JPP is excellent against the run and still a threat as a pass rusher that you have to respect and would do fine as a 3 tech DE. As of late he hasn't blown up the pass rush game, but has not gotten pushed around either. The other DE could be Dalvin Tomlinson. He is a big boy with a motor and some moves. Okwara I think could possibly be a good fit there as well, at least to rotate in.

      OV would move to an OLB as the Joker. That is primarily a pass rusher. I think OV would excel at this by moving away from the line a little his speed will be used much better IMO. Remains to be seen of course. BJ Goodson would make a really good Mike ILB who is basically a hammer in the middle. He would need to stay healthy though. We have no other experience LBs on the roster so 4-3 or 3-4 we will need to make moves. I think Sheppard would make a good Will ILB how should be more athletic and better in coverage. Perhaps bring back Kennard to play the other OLB Sam spot. But I think we need to draft another LB early this year.

      There are some really good LBs / Edge rushers in this draft and I would be very surprised if we didn't go LB early in this draft.
      LT (132.5) -> Strahan (141.5) -> Osi (65) -> Tuck (60.5) -> JPP (50) -> ???
      "Next man up"

      "I am a nasty football player, I get after people. That is something that I am very proud of. I am out there and I am physical every play, making sure that the guy across from me wants to quit." - Adam Bisnowaty

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree with BA. It will be a hybrid using one or the other in deferent situations.

        https://www.bigblueview.com/2018/2/7...ts-pat-shurmur

        It would be difficult to game plan against.
        There's two times of year for me: Football season, and waiting for football season.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post
          http://boards.giants.com/forum/new-y...witch-to-a-3-4


          From about a month ago. Like many threads it got completely side tracked into a debate whether 3-4 is even a thing and whether it matters since teams run nickel a lot.

          So before the same thing happens here I'll chime in and say that nothing official (that I have heard) has been said about the base D yet. It is assumed by most people that we will be switching. I imagine we will switch as well since that is what Bettcher has run everywhere he has gone. Why would we get a 3-4 DC that has exclusively coached in a 3-4 in the NFL and then not run a 3-4? As of last week Damon Harrison said he didn't know if they would be asked to switch but said he could and would do what ever is needed.

          With that said I think obviously Harrison is a great DT and was one of the best in the league as a 3-4 NT for the Jets. JPP is excellent against the run and still a threat as a pass rusher that you have to respect and would do fine as a 3 tech DE. As of late he hasn't blown up the pass rush game, but has not gotten pushed around either. The other DE could be Dalvin Tomlinson. He is a big boy with a motor and some moves. Okwara I think could possibly be a good fit there as well, at least to rotate in.

          OV would move to an OLB as the Joker. That is primarily a pass rusher. I think OV would excel at this by moving away from the line a little his speed will be used much better IMO. Remains to be seen of course. BJ Goodson would make a really good Mike ILB who is basically a hammer in the middle. He would need to stay healthy though. We have no other experience LBs on the roster so 4-3 or 3-4 we will need to make moves. I think Sheppard would make a good Will ILB how should be more athletic and better in coverage. Perhaps bring back Kennard to play the other OLB Sam spot. But I think we need to draft another LB early this year.

          There are some really good LBs / Edge rushers in this draft and I would be very surprised if we didn't go LB early in this draft.
          Too funny.....I actually commented on the last page of that thread. Pretty much said what I said above regarding the lack of LB's. Completely forgot about it.

          I actually think we'd need to pickup a couple LB's this off-season, if we were to switch. The players we have haven't proven much, and the ones who have shown promise have also had issues staying healthy.

          Also, if we end up trading down, a player like Chubb may be someone to keep an eye on. I agree, OV may end up being moved to LB. If that's the case, JPP - Snacks - Chubb would be a formidable DL against the run and should be able to provide pressure, or at least occupy OL, for the LB's behind them against the pass.
          NFL Draft (Realistic Hope):

          Rd 1
          Garrett Bolles - OT
          David Njoku - TE
          Zach Cunningham - OLB

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post
            http://boards.giants.com/forum/new-y...witch-to-a-3-4


            From about a month ago. Like many threads it got completely side tracked into a debate whether 3-4 is even a thing and whether it matters since teams run nickel a lot.

            So before the same thing happens here I'll chime in and say that nothing official (that I have heard) has been said about the base D yet. It is assumed by most people that we will be switching. I imagine we will switch as well since that is what Bettcher has run everywhere he has gone. Why would we get a 3-4 DC that has exclusively coached in a 3-4 in the NFL and then not run a 3-4? As of last week Damon Harrison said he didn't know if they would be asked to switch but said he could and would do what ever is needed.

            With that said I think obviously Harrison is a great DT and was one of the best in the league as a 3-4 NT for the Jets. JPP is excellent against the run and still a threat as a pass rusher that you have to respect and would do fine as a 3 tech DE. As of late he hasn't blown up the pass rush game, but has not gotten pushed around either. The other DE could be Dalvin Tomlinson. He is a big boy with a motor and some moves. Okwara I think could possibly be a good fit there as well, at least to rotate in.

            OV would move to an OLB as the Joker. That is primarily a pass rusher. I think OV would excel at this by moving away from the line a little his speed will be used much better IMO. Remains to be seen of course. BJ Goodson would make a really good Mike ILB who is basically a hammer in the middle. He would need to stay healthy though. We have no other experience LBs on the roster so 4-3 or 3-4 we will need to make moves. I think Sheppard would make a good Will ILB how should be more athletic and better in coverage. Perhaps bring back Kennard to play the other OLB Sam spot. But I think we need to draft another LB early this year.

            There are some really good LBs / Edge rushers in this draft and I would be very surprised if we didn't go LB early in this draft.
            Mike I think your answer is perfect. I couldn't improve a single word. +1 as they say.

            Comment


            • #7
              Regardless of what the Giants scheme is, they need to get some talent at LB. I think taking a guy like Rashaan Evans, Leighton Vander Esch, or Malik Jefferson on day 2 of the draft this year makes a ton of sense. Maybe Roquan Smith falls due to his size at 225lbs? (I know that is unrealistic)

              I would also look at bringing in a cheap vet guy like Kevin Minter (was a top 25 LB according to PFF playing in Bettchers scheme in 2016). He will probably only cost 2-3mil, compared to 7-8 mil a year for guys like Bradham, Hitchens, and Zach Brown.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by That Guy Rich View Post
                Mike I think your answer is perfect. I couldn't improve a single word. +1 as they say.
                Thanks. I really look forward to seeing what Bettcher can do here. I have been reading a ton about him and watching a bunch of videos of his Ds and we could be very good next year. Snacks is the key to everything.

                Originally posted by Piddy283 View Post

                Too funny.....I actually commented on the last page of that thread. Pretty much said what I said above regarding the lack of LB's. Completely forgot about it.

                I actually think we'd need to pickup a couple LB's this off-season, if we were to switch. The players we have haven't proven much, and the ones who have shown promise have also had issues staying healthy.

                Also, if we end up trading down, a player like Chubb may be someone to keep an eye on. I agree, OV may end up being moved to LB. If that's the case, JPP - Snacks - Chubb would be a formidable DL against the run and should be able to provide pressure, or at least occupy OL, for the LB's behind them against the pass.
                These are our LBs right now.No matter what happens we 100% absolutely need to get more LBs. Unless we are switching to a dime defense I guess lol. I agree Chubb is in play in round 1 for us. He isn't my first choice but he is a good option. I really hope we can get an extra 2nd round pick though, there are some very good LBs, OGs and RBs that might be there in round two, would love to get 2 of them.
                LT (132.5) -> Strahan (141.5) -> Osi (65) -> Tuck (60.5) -> JPP (50) -> ???
                "Next man up"

                "I am a nasty football player, I get after people. That is something that I am very proud of. I am out there and I am physical every play, making sure that the guy across from me wants to quit." - Adam Bisnowaty

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jimmie ray View Post
                  I suppose having Harrison already on the roster is the key first step. He did it well for the Jets. The rest seems like a poor fit, between Vernon being undersized, and JPP being handicapped for potentially more tackling responsibilities. I've read some suggestion about moving one or both to LB. Either way, there has to be major changes in that unit - this could be an "excuse" to go in that direction.
                  Vernon is now an OLB...he is the right size for that
                  Long Live the King

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I haven't seen or heard anything about a switch to a 3-4, but it is a good question.

                    We could run both.

                    Don't forget though, over 50% of the time now, teams are in Nickel so you have to have guys that can you a Four Man Front. Whether that is all four down in the stance, or an end guy playing up.

                    Damon Harrison could play NT in a 3-4, and that is the hardest piece to find. JPP and Tomlinson could play as 3-4 DEs, Vernon could play Joker.

                    I do think we will draft two LBs, as we need some good ones.

                    Hopefully we can play a whole bunch of different fronts, but having Harrison gives us flexibility.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tommy_Ribs View Post
                      I haven't seen or heard anything about a switch to a 3-4, but it is a good question.

                      We could run both.

                      Don't forget though, over 50% of the time now, teams are in Nickel so you have to have guys that can you a Four Man Front. Whether that is all four down in the stance, or an end guy playing up.

                      Damon Harrison could play NT in a 3-4, and that is the hardest piece to find. JPP and Tomlinson could play as 3-4 DEs, Vernon could play Joker.

                      I do think we will draft two LBs, as we need some good ones.

                      Hopefully we can play a whole bunch of different fronts, but having Harrison gives us flexibility.
                      I think you're right. I see it being a hybrid, but I think we retool in a fashion that allows us to run a 3-4 properly.

                      I see Tahir Whitehead is going to be a FA. I can't remember if he was a FA before, or if it was the draft, but I remember wanting the Giants to pick him up at one point. I wonder how much he'll get on the open market.
                      NFL Draft (Realistic Hope):

                      Rd 1
                      Garrett Bolles - OT
                      David Njoku - TE
                      Zach Cunningham - OLB

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        These are our LBs right now.OMG this is so sad

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by IrishMike357 View Post
                          Thanks. I really look forward to seeing what Bettcher can do here. I have been reading a ton about him and watching a bunch of videos of his Ds and we could be very good next year. Snacks is the key to everything.


                          These are our LBs right now.No matter what happens we 100% absolutely need to get more LBs. Unless we are switching to a dime defense I guess lol. I agree Chubb is in play in round 1 for us. He isn't my first choice but he is a good option. I really hope we can get an extra 2nd round pick though, there are some very good LBs, OGs and RBs that might be there in round two, would love to get 2 of them.
                          Ive been reading about Bettcher and watching some videos. Seems to me like he knows his stuff and from the videos of him, its clear that he successfully communicates and is good teacher.

                          Im looking forward to this new chapter for the team and Im also optimistic that the mediocrity and toxic environment from BFatMac will be quickly turned around.

                          With contracts and bonuses coming up soon, I guess well know more about which way were going when we see who is kept and who is cut.
                          #80

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Piddy283 View Post

                            I think you're right. I see it being a hybrid, but I think we retool in a fashion that allows us to run a 3-4 properly.

                            I see Tahir Whitehead is going to be a FA. I can't remember if he was a FA before, or if it was the draft, but I remember wanting the Giants to pick him up at one point. I wonder how much he'll get on the open market.
                            He was in the 2012 draft, so he is probably going to go on his third contract now. He's only 27 years old, so he is in line for a good deal imho. Whitehead has been a tackling machine in Detroit, and has position versatility playing both inside and outside. He actually seems like a guy Patricia/Quinn would want to keep since he is extremely versatile. I could also see Dave trying to grab him, and grab Norwell for some impact FA Moves.

                            I'll bet Whitehead is viewed as a Top FA.

                            Another reason I like him, and this will sound weird, he is not a Huge, LB. He is smaller, but very rangy. I have always believed in the philosophy of having big Strong D-Linemen, and FAST LBs behind them that can run free, hit and cover. That is not in line with the GIANTS thinking.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Not much will change LOOK-wise.
                              Our 4-3 Under looks very similar to a 3-4. The biggest difference would be that the players will now have 2 gap assignments instead of 1 and OV will be standing up.
                              This is not a big deal. What we do need is another good pass rusher because I don't have faith in Kennard to create consistent pressure.

                              Comment

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