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Carl Banks scoffs at Clowney-LT comparisons.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
    And I still argue that any pass rushing LB would have forced the same change.

    You needed a LT that could block one.

    Would a Demarcus ware or Aldon smith or Clay Matthews have been easily blocked by the previous type of LT? No they wouldn't have.

    It was a schematic issue as much as Taylor was good.
    Interesting that one doesn't hear your premise from a player (esp a QB or a LB) of the 80s, or any coach of the 80s, or a GM of the 80s. Yet plenty of them have all agreed about LT --and only LT--being the one player who changed many offenses' schemes for playing against him.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by gmen46 View Post
      Interesting that one doesn't hear your premise from a player (esp a QB or a LB) of the 80s, or any coach of the 80s, or a GM of the 80s. Yet plenty of them have all agreed about LT --and only LT--being the one player who changed many offenses' schemes for playing against him.
      That's because LT was the first real pass rusher from the position he played.

      Perhaps you could argue that LT set the ground rules for future pass rushing OLBs.

      Either way, I don't really like the argument as a way to argue his greatness.
      Last edited by slipknottin; 04-10-2014, 07:52 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
        And I still argue that any pass rushing LB would have forced the same change.

        You needed a LT that could block one.

        Would a Demarcus ware or Aldon smith or Clay Matthews have been easily blocked by the previous type of LT? No they wouldn't have.

        It was a schematic issue as much as Taylor was good.
        Again, I'll have to disagree.

        I mentioned Matheson with Miami as an example of a pass-rushing linebacker operating out of a 3-4 scheme in the 1970s. Another example is Robert Brazile, who played as a 3-4 pass-rushing linebacker under Bum Phillips, years before LT entered the NFL.

        Also, Ted Hendricks and Phil Villapiano were used to rush the passer with the Raiders when they switched to a 3-4 in 1976.

        The 3-4 was around before LT, and it was a scheme that used linebackers to pressure the QB. LT just took it to another level, and forced teams to change how they played offense.

        As mentioned in an earlier post, LT forced Bill Walsh to change the emphasis he placed on left tackle. Another great coach, Joe Gibbs, redesigned his offense specifically to deal with Taylor....


        By November 18, 1985, when the Giants went into Robert F. Kennedy Stadium in Washington, DC, to play the Redskins, opposing teams have taken to lining up their players in new and creative ways simply to deal with him.

        The Redskins are a case in point. Early in the very first game in which his Redskins had faced this new force, back in 1981, Joe Gibbs had watched Taylor sprint past the blocker as if he wasn't there and clobber Joe Theismann from behind. "I was standing there," said Gibbs, "and I said, 'What? Did you see that? Oh Lord.' " Gibbs had flopped about looking for a solution to this new problem, and had come up with the "one back offense" -- a formation, widely imitated in the NFL, that uses one running back instead of two.

        Until that moment, football offenses had typically used running backs to block linebackers who came charging after quarterbacks
        . But running backs were smaller, weaker, and, surprisingly often, given their job description, slower than Lawrence Taylor. Lynn Cain, a running back for the Atlanta Falcons, was the first to dramatize the problem. The first time Cain went to block Taylor he went in very low, got up underneath him, and sent Taylor flying head over heels. The next play Cain tried it again -- and was carried off the field on a stretcher.

        "People figured out very quickly that they couldn't block Lawrence with a running back," Parcells said. "Then the question became: who do you block him with?" Hence Joe Gibbs's first solution: to remove the running back from the game and insert, across the line from Lawrence Taylor, a bigger, stronger tight end. The one back offense.

        http://abcnews.go.com/2020/BlindSide...9418563&page=4
        Last edited by joemorrisforprez; 04-10-2014, 09:53 PM.
        "I like linebackers. I collect 'em. You can't have too many good ones." - Bill Parcells

        "Name the starting linebackers from 2007." - Jerry Reese

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        • #19
          A lot of fans on these boards haven't seen LT play, other than highlight reels and DVDs of playoff games. The reason I point that out is because they wouldn't have seen football on a weekly basis before he came into the league. There was never anyone as good as him at that position. He wasn't the first, as was accurately pointed out, but he was so much better than anyone else that he had to be double teamed very frequently when he rushed the passer. A running back couldn't block him, a TE needed help, the Redskins would try to chip him even though Joe Jacoby was assigned to him, sometimes Bostic would slide out to help Jacoby. We could debate whether he changed the game, but I got to go with the opinions of guys like Gibbs and Parcells. It was unheard of for an outside LB to push around 300 lb left tackles.

          Most people who haven't seen him play think he was an edge rusher, but he moved around like crazy, free lancing and by design.

          LT would have been the best defensive player ever in any scheme. He was that great.
          Last edited by Roswell; 04-11-2014, 12:29 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
            The 34 was used without any of the linebackers rushing the QB. All four dropped in coverage.

            That's why I said putting any other pass rushing OLB would have accomplished the same thing.
            That is not true. And it illustrates another way LT changed the game. Plenty of LBs in a 3-4 did rush the QB. But LT was incredibly successful when he would freelance.

            Even when left tackle Jim Lachey would have success against LT, he would find another way to disrupt the Redskin passing attack. I bet LT would say Lachey was the best tackle he faced.
            Last edited by Roswell; 04-11-2014, 12:07 AM.

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            • #21
              I feel like the bigger story may be the story of the lineman who missed the assignment for the famous Clowney tackle. I have said it before, this kid is a freak and cannot be overlooked. But I don't know his heart or his passion. I believe he can be great but it depends on who he is. He has the tools but there will be more that will be needed to be an hall of fame DE.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
                I still dont really like this argument.

                The changed the game thing was a schematic issue as much as it was LT.

                Put any pass rushing LB (demarcus ware, aldon smith, etc.) in a 34 defense back in the early 80s and teams are going to have to change how they block him.
                WTF are you smoking?!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by slipknottin View Post
                  That's because LT was the first real pass rusher from the position he played.

                  Perhaps you could argue that LT set the ground rules for future pass rushing OLBs.

                  Either way, I don't really like the argument as a way to argue his greatness.
                  Saying he schematically changed the game is only highlighting part of the impact of his game. A player of lesser ability might not have forced such drastic change because other means might have been successful in controlling them and mitigating their impact i.e. chip blocks. It's his game play all over the field that ultimately makes him the greatest ever.

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                  • #24
                    Clowney and JPP are athletic freaks like LT was, but other than that there is no comparison.

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                    • #25
                      Clowney is nowhere near Taylors level!! Words can't describe how good he was. He is the sole reason why I became a Giants fan. Watch Clownys high school highlights and that's what it was like watching LT play in the NFL.

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                      • #26
                        Im not old enough to had watched LT play unfortunately but from watching old games and hearing my dad talk about him I don't think Clowney will match LT at all. Clowney could quite possibly be the best prospect I have ever seen on defense as far as talent and potential goes. He is an absolute freak of nature. That being said it sounds like he is no where near to the other categories that made LT who he was. My dad always says LT was a borderline sick human being because of how intense he was. He wasn't going to let anything stop him from getting to the QB/RB whoever. Clowney does not have that same mentality IMO. Also LT was a very smart football player. He knew what all of the defenders were supposed to do a specific play and understood what the offense was trying to do. I don't know if Clowney is at that level of football smarts either. Another thing is LT's ability to get a 100% from his teammates. I have heard guys like Banks and Carson in interviews saying that he would not let you go anything less than 100% even in practice or he would be on your ***. Clowney took basically a whole year off... add that to never seeing him get on someones case pushing them to play harder...

                        When you take all of those things into consideration I don't think it is close really. Clowney is a great player. He has potential to be a NFL great but not to the level LT was on. I have not seen LT play live so I am not trying to say that I know for a fact how good he was because it is totally different seeing someone live week after week and seeing some highlights of a guy play and hear people talk about him. Clowney just doesn't have that intensity about him I think to equal what people are still saying about LT now IMO.
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                        • #27
                          Simply put LT could do it all and did it all as good or better than anyone still to this day. Clowney tons of talent and Upside but will he have the drive to make him the NFL player everyone thinks he will be is still yet to be seen. I grew up watching LT during the 80's. I was watching the game when he broke Theismans legs as a kid but still i was watching it as it unfolded or broke however u want to put it. I think all the comparisons saying this guy is the next this or that. I say wait to see how they play against NFL competition befor claiming any of these kids are the next greats in the NFL. There have been many great college players that never amounted to anything in the NFL.

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                          • #28
                            LT didnt take plays off, yet alone games and almost a season off....
                            WE ALREADY HAVE A GREAT RUNNING BACK:

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Roswell777 View Post
                              A lot of fans on these boards haven't seen LT play, other than highlight reels and DVDs of playoff games. The reason I point that out is because they wouldn't have seen football on a weekly basis before he came into the league. There was never anyone as good as him at that position. He wasn't the first, as was accurately pointed out, but he was so much better than anyone else that he had to be double teamed very frequently when he rushed the passer. A running back couldn't block him, a TE needed help, the Redskins would try to chip him even though Joe Jacoby was assigned to him, sometimes Bostic would slide out to help Jacoby. We could debate whether he changed the game, but I got to go with the opinions of guys like Gibbs and Parcells. It was unheard of for an outside LB to push around 300 lb left tackles.

                              Most people who haven't seen him play think he was an edge rusher, but he moved around like crazy, free lancing and by design.

                              LT would have been the best defensive player ever in any scheme. He was that great.
                              He was absolutely the best defensive player I have ever seen. I am 37 and old enough to remember watching him in his prime. My family could not stand the giants, but watching their games with me just to see what he would do next. John madden used to droop over LT, along with a every one else on NFL today.
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                              • #30
                                Check out this pass rusher, he's pretty athletic so he reminds me of the greatest defensive player to ever live

                                lol

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