DE in the First?

[MattMeyerBud]

[quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that

[Kruunch]

[quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).

[MattMeyerBud]

[quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).[/quote]

ree agent DE John Abraham says he's aiming for an annual "$12 million-plus" in his new contract. <div class="impact">"Check
out the five top ends," Abraham said. "Everybody is getting 12-plus. I
made $8 million last year ... how am I greedy when I’m just trying to
get paid the same thing they are getting paid?" Three months shy of his
34th birthday, Abraham spent the majority of 2011 on a snap count.
Extremely unlikely to get an annual $12 million, Abraham might even have
trouble matching the $8 million he earned last season. <span class="date">Feb 25 - 9:55 AM

----


i agree with rotoworld, i'd be VERY surprised if he got a 3 for 24 mil deal. I agree Reese wouldn't go for that... but whats the cotract that would make Osi happy? whats the deal we're willing to take?

He already denied the incentives thing last year.

It won't be a suicide, he'll milk an injury like he did this year (in my opinion) and will be happy when hes paid. SOMEBODY will give him a contrac that makes him happy.


</span></div>

[giantsfan420]

[quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).[/quote]

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi

[MattMeyerBud]

[quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).[/quote]

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi[/quote]

ehh, im not writing off Abraham. I def think Osi is more superior but Abraham has been the victim of double teams his whole career. I think if he came in this mix he'd be just fine...

I also think you guys are being completely dramatic about the cost of what Abraham would be. Theres what he wants and then there is reality.

Lets look at two DEs from last year who were in their mid 20s coming off rookie deals that produced similiar (granted not as good) as Abraham

Jason Babin 5 year 25 mil and ray edwards 5 year 30 mil.... Abraham would be lucky to get that imo. THe guy is too old. I mean the falcons themselves are the ones that gave Ray Edwards the contract and they had Abraham on the other side of him and they STILL won't give him that much money.

EDIT: and listen, i agree whta Osi has said in the media about is refreshing, but it far from proves anything.....

he may not get top 5 DE money, but what, he wants top 10 now? we have no idea what his demands.are.

Just cuz Osi says he won't be as public this year, doesn't mean hes living in reality

[MattMeyerBud]

also would like to point out that the last contract Abraham signed was a 6 years for 45 mil - i don't think hes going to be getting the same average per year at age 34 as he did at 28

[Kruunch]

[quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is.* But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).[/quote]

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi[/quote]

JPP doesn't make enough money to give up any to Osi. He's a $3.1mil cap hit this year, 2.3 of which is guaranteed.

@MMB: I just don't know. The incentives deal they offered him this year was fairly piddily (something 250k on ridiculous numbers (which ironically he would have made lol)) which is why he turned it down flat. Osi also isn't really approaching this with any sort of intelligence ... I just don't know what would make him happy.

If I was playing GM I'd offer him a restructured deal at 4 years for $24 million base and another $2-3 mil/year in incentives. That would give him potentially Abraham-like money without killing our cap unless he keeps up his performance (and then you don't mind so much).

The potential killer to those kinds of numbers if what Mario Williams may get. If MW gets Julius Peppers or better money, I don't see anything reasonable keeping Osi happy here.

[MattMeyerBud]

[quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="gmen0820"][quote user="Kruunch"]
The 3rd pass rusher didn't seem to help when it was Tuck, Tolly and JPP.

[/quote]He did say legit pass rusher in all fairness.[/quote]

To your point then, does it matter?[/quote]Yes, Tolly and Osi don't compare. Osi is legit and Tolly isn't.

That is what you are arguing though isn't it, that Osi is a legit pass rusher?[/quote]

i actually didn't say legit in the first post he responded to, thats where the confusion is. But yes I mean a third legit pass rusher
[/quote]

Ok find me a legit pass rusher that makes less then even twice what Osi will make in 2012 that we could get in FA.[/quote]

OSi is not going to play if he doesnt get an extension. Just becuase he said he won't talk to the media, doesn't mean he still won't do what he feels hes gotta do..

Maybe thats where we are missing. You have faith in him, i don't.

but I DO think that with the extension and more money that would offer him, if he doesn't choose to accept it, that Abraham could be signed for that
[/quote]

Abraham made $12mil last year and will command at LEAST half of that even at 34 (probably more like 2 years at $8mil a year).

No way Reese goes for that. I just don't see it and Reese has yet to ever sign a short term big money FA (it could happen ... there are first times for everything).

Osi's extension will obviously depend on how much he's asking for and the length of the exteension and I'm sure will be extremely incentive based which will be a cap help to us.

Osi could hold out yes ... but it would be financial suicide (much like he killed his market value with his BS last year). I'd be surprised if his agent isn't holding one of his relatives hostage right now.

I do think he's on the ROSTER in 2012 though ... just too much upside for the Giants to keep him (barring someone giving us a stupidly good trade).[/quote]

while u and mmb both make great points, i agree with what u've been saying. a lot of good insight in this thread.

one thing i haven't seen addressed in this thread is what jpp had to say. something along the lines of jpp would play for less if it meant playing with osi. i think part of the reason our trio is so deadly is the relationship all three have with each other. if osi is not on the roster for whatever reason, would a guy like abraham be able to step in and the giants not miss a beat? i dont think so. i think osi is a huge part of the success equation. he is downright nasty as a pass rush specialist...strictly in terms of pass rush, i actually do think osi is a top 5 talent...abraham is 34 and has had success the past 3 years, osi is 31 i believe, whose to say he cant also have success?

lock osi up for another 3-4 years, let him retire a giant as he's said he wants to, and our DE situation wont need to be addressed in FA or the draft...going for a guy like abraham (is he a FA? I thought if a team wanted him it had to be thru trade?) would cost as much if not more than osi, why not just keep the guy whose proven to be an integral part of our success??

i was all for getting rid of osi this past offseason, but only bc of his attitude and how he ran his mouth. now he's taken a diff. route and is displaying a diff attitude, he doesn't seem to care about getting top 5 money, he just wants a fair contract and to retire a giant, we should be able to accommodate that.

if the choices are sign a big name FA for more than what we could sign osi at or equal value or just resigning osi, i think its pretty easy to conclude it'd be for the best to just keep osi[/quote]

JPP doesn't make enough money to give up any to Osi. He's a $3.1mil cap hit this year, 2.3 of which is guaranteed.

@MMB: I just don't know. The incentives deal they offered him this year was fairly piddily (something 250k on ridiculous numbers (which ironically he would have made lol)) which is why he turned it down flat. Osi also isn't really approaching this with any sort of intelligence ... I just don't know what would make him happy.

If I was playing GM I'd offer him a restructured deal at 4 years for $24 million base and another $2-3 mil/year in incentives. That would give him potentially Abraham-like money without killing our cap unless he keeps up his performance (and then you don't mind so much).

The potential killer to those kinds of numbers if what Mario Williams may get. If MW gets Julius Peppers or better money, I don't see anything reasonable keeping Osi happy here.[/quote]

I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical. I also don't think giving Osi potentially 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi

[Kruunch]

[quote user="MattMeyerBud"]
I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical.* I also don't think giving Osi potentially* 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi
[/quote]

I have no idea what Abraham will get ... but he's already gotten that money and now wants MORE.

The franchise number for a DE is over $10mil (one of the highest paid positions in the league).

I think Osi is worth $6mil a year easy right now and an incentives deal (to pay him more) would probably keep him happy.

If you wanted to keep him, I think that's what it will take.

However the Giants definitely have the leverage to keep him for at least 2012. Whether Osi pulls the same BS as he did in 2011 is up to him.

[MattMeyerBud]

[quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"]
I just disagree at the notion that Abraham is going to be getting 8 mil a year. I don't think its logical. I also don't think giving Osi potentially 8-9 mil a year would be a good move either. I'd rather let him go and save that money for Cruz, KP, Nicks, and Kiwi
[/quote]

I have no idea what Abraham will get ... but he's already gotten that money and now wants MORE.

The franchise number for a DE is over $10mil (one of the highest paid positions in the league).

I think Osi is worth $6mil a year easy right now and an incentives deal (to pay him more) would probably keep him happy.

If you wanted to keep him, I think that's what it will take.

However the Giants definitely have the leverage to keep him for at least 2012. Whether Osi pulls the same BS as he did in 2011 is up to him.[/quote]

I just don't think thats a number we will be able to swing with alot more contracts to come up. I would like to keep Osi, but I can't see the Giants handing that out.

And i think Abraham will end up signing for less than Osi would if OSi does get traded. I dunno what he'll get either but no way hes gettin 8 per year average...

off the top of my head I think I could name 10 other DEs - EASY - that are better than Abraham, he may even be out of the top 15