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  1. #1

    Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    from rotoworld scout josh norris:

    [link]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AstbiM26zqkmdEV5OWxkNDJEc2Rsa0RTcHdheXlBb 2c&gid=12[/link]

    Dwayne Allen (grade 6.1):

    Gets proper distance in terms of length/separation when blocking, separates but in control. Shoulders over toes, low and puts facemask on chest when blocking. Aims for outside shoulder when sealing the edge, keeps turning if DE shoots inside. Effective from Joker spot, first few steps have burst. Positions body in catchable area even with DB draped over him. Used on punt team, consistently 3rd downfield after gunners. Plays plenty of inline but also move/Joker role, slot, in backfield. Gets open with crispness at the top of routes, balanced base. Has more than enough speed to challenge DBs downfield. Very soft hands, like pillows (in a good way) that envelop the ball, comfortable. Just so fluid in breaking routes, one step with inside foot then out. Unafraid when going up to get the ball, high point and firm catch. Subtle head movements sell routes, adjusts to poor throws in air. Actually a worse blocker from H-Back role, occasionally struggles to locate target. Tracks very well over his shoulder, tremendously fluid. Not sure if he is quick twitch, graceful. Sells blocking then releases with slap by for dump pass very well. Adequate after the catch, not a burner but subtle movements, low posture. Only overwhelmed in blocking vs strong upper body, base is still composed. Just lacks some anticipation on blocking, which causes hesitation. Lowers his center on breaking routes, does not lose momentum.
    Coby Fleener (6.0):
    More Greg Olsen than Gronkowski. Consistent vertical threat that gets downfield quickly. Thin frame and shows when getting out physical at catch point by smaller DBs. Consistently gets bumped off his route by physical LBs. Can really turn and run upfield after the catch. Does use push off against trailing safeties, catch back shoulder on crossing routes. Overextends when blocking too often when inline, can certainly be fixed. Matches up very well vs slower LBs, bigger/physical DBs give him more problems, like Robert Blanton. Doesn't latch on when blocking, punches and readjusts. Agile in his routes but not outstandingly so. Haven't seen him battled at the line or ont he release very often. Makes tough catches on good throws. Are hesitations in routes for timing purposes or lack of agility/nimbleness? Hands get too wide when blocking, should be called for more holds. First contact when blocking can be elbows and forearms. A fantastic burst after the catch, breaks away but shows he doesn't run routes at full speed. I think Stanford's multiple TE sets took pressure/coverage off of him. Many catches were wide open and not because of route running, other TEs took the contact in the box. Struggles with balls closer to the ground. More finesse than physical
    he makes a really good argument for allen over fleener

  2. #2

    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    I'll adress some negatives I disagree about Fleener

    More Greg Olsen than Gronkowski.
    Fair. Nobody is saying hes Gronk anyway. Gronk is more about hands+ball skills, not speed

    Thin frame and shows when getting out physical at catch point by smaller DBs.
    Honestly, i havent really seen this of fleener

    Consistently gets bumped off his route by physical LBs.
    Disagree. There are multiple ways to get off press coverage: quickness, savvy, and strength. Fleener doesn't really evade press cvg with quickness and its tough to beat it with savvy ofc when you're hand is in the dirt, but he does a good job of dealing with press coverage with his strength. "consistently" bumped off route? strongly disagree. Fleener extends his arms, kind of latches on against the defenders chest with his hands (holds against the defender), drops his pad level instead of being upright (which is good against press cvg), and runs right at the defender when trying to get jammed. It "looks" like hes getting tied up and pressed but in the end he isn't getting slowed down, bumped, and pushed back at all. In fact, usually the opposite

    Matches up very well vs slower LBs, bigger/physical DBs give him more problems, like Robert Blanton.
    The same Blanton that Fleener completely turned around in coverage and dragged his a** 10 yards into the end zone?

    Agile in his routes but not outstandingly so.
    Fair, but considering his size (6'6) he is incredibly light on his feet (and fast too obviously)

    Are hesitations in routes for timing purposes or lack of agility/nimbleness?
    Probably the former. There are at times fleener runs with slow agility and speed, but you have to understand a large part of his game is setting people up, not because he is slow. Ive seen him make grabs when running with full speed and agility

    A fantastic burst after the catch, breaks away but shows he doesn't run routes at full speed.
    Hm, hes probably talking about Fleener's TD catch against ucla (im assuming). If thats the case, he didnt run the route at full speed because it was necessary in order to set up the defender. By being lethargic and slow playing his route, he was able to completely run by the guy cutting all full speed. That doesnt mean hes slow off the line, hes trying to set people up. Fleener's savvy is one of the best part of his skill set

    Many catches were wide open and not because of route running
    Getting open against zone coverage in suddenly a bad thing?

    Struggles with balls closer to the ground.
    So does Allen

    More finesse than physical
    Well, this is a criticism I had of fleener's as well. But fleener is so great at separating, why criticism him for not making more physical catches with defenders draped over him like allen does? Fleener's made some grabs showing he's physical, but the majority of the time he separates so well it isn't really necessary for him

    I guess I can agree with some things he said about Fleener and his blocking. I wish he went into more detail about some of fleeners positives. Doesnt seem like he likes fleener very much like allen

  3. #3
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    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    Interesting, although I doubt we'll take either one of those guys.
    We need our coaches to assign playing time based on something other than player salary.

  4. #4

    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    [quote user="nevada11"]from rotoworld scout josh norris:

    [link]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AstbiM26zqkmdEV5OWxkNDJEc2Rsa0RTcHdheXlBb 2c&gid=12[/link]

    Dwayne Allen (grade 6.1):

    Gets proper distance in terms of length/separation when blocking, separates but in control. Shoulders over toes, low and puts facemask on chest when blocking. Aims for outside shoulder when sealing the edge, keeps turning if DE shoots inside. Effective from Joker spot, first few steps have burst. Positions body in catchable area even with DB draped over him. Used on punt team, consistently 3rd downfield after gunners. Plays plenty of inline but also move/Joker role, slot, in backfield. Gets open with crispness at the top of routes, balanced base. Has more than enough speed to challenge DBs downfield. Very soft hands, like pillows (in a good way) that envelop the ball, comfortable. Just so fluid in breaking routes, one step with inside foot then out. Unafraid when going up to get the ball, high point and firm catch. Subtle head movements sell routes, adjusts to poor throws in air. Actually a worse blocker from H-Back role, occasionally struggles to locate target. Tracks very well over his shoulder, tremendously fluid. Not sure if he is quick twitch, graceful. Sells blocking then releases with slap by for dump pass very well. Adequate after the catch, not a burner but subtle movements, low posture. Only overwhelmed in blocking vs strong upper body, base is still composed. Just lacks some anticipation on blocking, which causes hesitation. Lowers his center on breaking routes, does not lose momentum.
    Coby Fleener (6.0):
    More Greg Olsen than Gronkowski. Consistent vertical threat that gets downfield quickly. Thin frame and shows when getting out physical at catch point by smaller DBs. Consistently gets bumped off his route by physical LBs. Can really turn and run upfield after the catch. Does use push off against trailing safeties, catch back shoulder on crossing routes. Overextends when blocking too often when inline, can certainly be fixed. Matches up very well vs slower LBs, bigger/physical DBs give him more problems, like Robert Blanton. Doesn't latch on when blocking, punches and readjusts. Agile in his routes but not outstandingly so. Haven't seen him battled at the line or ont he release very often. Makes tough catches on good throws. Are hesitations in routes for timing purposes or lack of agility/nimbleness? Hands get too wide when blocking, should be called for more holds. First contact when blocking can be elbows and forearms. A fantastic burst after the catch, breaks away but shows he doesn't run routes at full speed. I think Stanford's multiple TE sets took pressure/coverage off of him. Many catches were wide open and not because of route running, other TEs took the contact in the box. Struggles with balls closer to the ground. More finesse than physical
    he makes a really good argument for allen over fleener[/quote]I converse with Norris all the time over Twitter. He is very knowledgeable. He didnt look to have that much trouble with Blanton when got him to bite on the inside ran an out and then dragged him 8 yards on his back into the endzone
    Coby Fleener vs Notre Dame
    [link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZDU-qKMPWg[/link]

  5. #5

    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"]He didnt look to have that much trouble with Blanton when got him to bite on the inside ran an out and then dragged him 8 yards on his back into the endzone[/quote]

    Haha, exactly.

  6. #6

    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    [quote user="Neverend"][quote user="Redeyejedi"]He didnt look to have that much trouble with Blanton when got him to bite on the inside ran an out and then dragged him 8 yards on his back into the endzone[/quote]

    Haha, exactly.[/quote]I dont think Allen and Fleener will have the same type of role in the NFL anyway. When Fleener adds 10-15 pounds of muscle with his length he will be a better then average in line blocker I believe.Combine that with his huge catch radius, savvy in the passing game he will be 1 of the better TE's in the NFL. I think Norris is severely underrating Fleeners all around skill as a receiver

  7. #7

    Re: Dwayne Allen vs Coby Fleener

    Biggest differences between Allen and Fleener (in my mind):

    1) Fleener is faster (but not quicker) and more of a downfield threat.

    2) Fleener is taller (by 3 inches).

    3) Fleener played in a similar system and alignment to what the Giants run.

    4) Fleener has much better route running savvy (Allen is almost always catching a yard or two short of the sticks).

    5) Fleener can easily add 10-20 pounds to his frame. Allen can't.

    I think Allen will do well in a certain system (more spread) but not on the Giants.
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

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