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  1. #41

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
    I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

    doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

    for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
    wright
    fleener
    randle
    chandler jones
    john martin
    nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
    doug martin[/quote]
    In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.[/quote]
    I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.



  2. #42

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="Neverend"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="Neverend"]Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

    I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

    no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.[/quote]

    its over on nfl.com, its just the mock draft, no explanation. he'll do the explaining part tonight...

    and i dunno if im just misinformed, but Martin has elite T qualities and is NFL ready. He has a great pass protection base, and is also a very good run blocker...

    mayock has him as the only other elite tackle prospect with kalil...decastro was good, but it was martin who anchored the line...and lets not forget, stanford didnt really have a bunch of top talent players...it was pretty much luck and a couple te's, Martin was a huge reason for Lucks success...Martin would be one of the top RT's in the league day 1 imho...[/quote]

    Kind of struggles against power, then again so does kalil at times

    but for the most part, i just dislike how reactive he is in pass protection. he reacts to the defensive lineman, he isn't the aggressor. because of it, he can struggle against savvy/technique/power rushers (double moves, rip/swats, up-and-under). many people in the social media calls him fineese and soft and you can see it with his technique. im not a fan of his

    and when he actually does try to be the aggressor and punches the rusher before the rusher contacts him, he lunges or waist bends. i personally think he might bust in the NFL[/quote]Yeah he scares me as well. He is very susceptible inside. I would be upset if they picked him in the first round. Seems more like a late 2nd Round prospect. Honestly i would rather have Mike Adams and I dont like him very much either. I like Massie better then both those guys

  3. #43
    Veteran JJC7301's Avatar
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    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="BlueSanta"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="giantsfan420"][quote user="JJC7301"][quote user="slipknottin"]Thing that concerns me with Martin is the same as with beatty, if he isnt a great pass protector, can either move to RT and be a good run blocker? Im not convinced. Im not real sure OT is that much of a need anyway, Beatty I would assume is the starting LT, and there is a three way battle for RT with Diehl, Locklear and Brewer. Guard I would argue is more of a need, where Snee has not played as well, and Im not convinced that either Boothe or Petrus are quality starters.[/quote]
    I'm not enthralled with Martin in the 1st round. I'll take the RB Doug Martin, but not Jon Martin.[/quote]

    doug martin aint gonna do much if we dont have a good line to block for him...

    for me, in order of what id likebased on who will be available around our pick)
    wright
    fleener
    randle
    chandler jones
    john martin
    nick perry (he can rush off the edge, so if we trade osi, i'd want him and then spend the 2nd on whoever is still left in order of this)
    doug martin[/quote]
    In my mind Doug Martin is the BPA available at # 32.[/quote]
    I dont really see how you can say that without knowing who has been picked in the 31 spots ahead of us.


    [/quote]
    Well, if some top 15 player falls to us then that's different, but I think that Doug Martin should be higher ranked than experts seem to have him ranked at. Almost all mocks have him as a 2nd round pick, but I think that he's 1st round talent.

    Mayock has him ranked # 17 and I'm thinking that he's right.

  4. #44

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable
    [/quote]

    Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

    For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


    This season -
    Left End - 4.03 ypc
    Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
    mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
    right tackle - 3.50 ypc
    right end - 3.74 ypc

    2010
    LE - 3.44 ypc
    LT - 4.31 ypc
    mid/guard - 4.48
    RT - 4.39
    RE - 3.89

    2009
    LE - 4.11
    LT - 4.04
    mid - 4.04
    RT - 4.56
    RE - 4.19

    So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

    Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

    Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

    Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

    Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

    2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
    open field yards - 3rd in the league

    2011
    2nd level yards - 29th
    open field yards - 29th

    So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

    Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


    In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

    Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.[/quote]I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year

  5. #45

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"][quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]Giants run game was just fine when Baas went out of the lineup and it was just fine when he came back sanz Beatty. The LG position isn't what was slowing down the Giants rushing attack, it was having a LT who couldn't run block making them to one dimensional/predictable
    [/quote]

    Lets look at how effective the giants were in running the ball in each direction the past couple seasons and see if Beatty is the problem, ok?

    For reference, Left end means outside the tackle, Left tackle means bewteen LT & LG, mid/guard is bewteen guards and center. This is from the official NFL game books they do every week, this is regular season only.


    This season -
    Left End - 4.03 ypc
    Left Tackle - 3.76 ypc
    mid/guard - 3.94 ypc
    right tackle - 3.50 ypc
    right end - 3.74 ypc

    2010
    LE - 3.44 ypc
    LT - 4.31 ypc
    mid/guard - 4.48
    RT - 4.39
    RE - 3.89

    2009
    LE - 4.11
    LT - 4.04
    mid - 4.04
    RT - 4.56
    RE - 4.19

    So lets review. This season was actually a significant improvement running off the left tackle than last year. Diehl for the record, played 10 games in 2010 at LT, and 2 at LG. This year Beatty played 10 games at LT.

    Running behind the LG+LT was way down, running behind the G+C was way down. Biggest decrease was running behind the RG+RT (a full yard), and running off RT has consistently fallen off.

    Now you show in there what evidence you have that Beatty was at fault. Are you suggesting that Beatty was so bad at run blocking that the defenses loaded up on the right side? That wouldnt explain the drop off running right the past 3 seasons.

    Perhaps you are suggesting that Beatty is at fault for the LT+LG runs? Is Beatty also the one to blame for the mid runs dropping as substantially as the LT+LG runs?

    Perhaps even more telling, Giants HB success once they got past the first level.

    2010 - 2nd level yards - 4th in the league
    open field yards - 3rd in the league

    2011
    2nd level yards - 29th
    open field yards - 29th

    So Beatty also did not run the ball nearly as well as Diehl? Is perhaps the argument?

    Or is it far far more likely that the running game was better with a better 2nd level and open field runner in Bradshaw? Who had 100 more carries in 2010 than he did in 2011, and perhaps was also healthier that season?


    In summary the interior running game was nowhere near as good as it has been last year. LG+C+RG all did not play well. The right side of the line had the biggest drop off, and McKenzie was in decline the past 3 or so seasons in terms of run blocking. The giants as a team have had far more success over the years running to the right side, particularly behind the RG+RT.

    Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.[/quote]I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year[/quote]I'm not ready to give up on Snee yet. Personally I think it was just a down year for him. This year he'll return to form.

  6. #46

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="Neverend"]Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

    I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

    no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.[/quote]

    I'd also rather take a more versatile guy than Martin.

    Glenn, Silatolu or even Osemele in the second round (all versatile OG/OT prospects with high grade builds/athletic qualities).

    Jonathan Martin is Mike Adams plus about 20 IQ points.
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

  7. #47

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="Redeyejedi"]I really hope Chris Snee was just hurt.Cant afford for him to stop playing well. What is he 30 , his skill shouldnt fall off a cliff like that. Maybe Mckenzies poor play had something to do with it. He looked done this year[/quote]

    I'm thinking KM failing on one side and having a new (underperforming) Center on the other was more of an issue for Snee then his abilities falling off.
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

  8. #48

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="slipknottin"]
    Running outside the LT was actually a strength of last season, so I will put Beatty down for most of that, seeing as Beatty started 10 games, and Diehl started 6.[/quote]

    Beatty played LT for 10 games in 2011 while Diehl player 10 games at LT in 2011 (including post season).

    If you look at the rushing numbers, they are FAR higher with Diehl at LT last year then with Beatty (like 30% higher).

    Beatty is a better pass blocker than Diehl is (at least as far as least year went) but DD is a much better run blocker.

    Also keep in mind that DD played with a broken hand all year in 2011.

    As for OT being a need ... that depends on how comfortable the Giants are with Brewer. You have DD for one more year at least, so we have our starters in place theoretically (Beatty at LT, DD at RT worse comes to worse).

    If they are high on Brewer, then he will most likely transition to RT at some point this year. If they're not high on him, they'll draft an OT early in the draft (depending availability of value of course).
    I don't always root for the Cowboys but when I do I wear my pink Jessica Simpson edition Romo jersey. (yes I lost a bet)

  9. #49

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="slipknottin"][quote user="juice33s"]We're
    talking about a team who has had a top ten rushing offense for close to
    a decade (#6 in 2010), yet with beatty in the lineup they drop to dead
    last only to show signs of their old selves once he exits the lineup and
    you guys think that LG is to blame?
    [/quote]

    Your stats do not support your argument. Sorry.


    I broke it down by exactly where the giants struggled and where they did well. Overall running numbers are meaningless if we are trying to single out an individual member.[/quote]
    Your numbers don't really say much to support your argument either. For starters running around the tackle usually has a TE involved so you can't give sole credit to the tackle and secondly it only has average, not total yardage or attempts (not to mention it doesn't even break it down by Beatty/Diehl when clearly the giants ran better with Diehl at LT). Also, you originally said that LG was the problem when your own numbers show running in that area has one of the highest averages.

    Its no secret that Beatty is not a mauler and I don't think its much of a coincidence that his absence coincided with the giants rejuvenated run game.

    Where as guys you seem to have a problem with (Boothe, Petrus) had a noticeable and direct impact on the run games improvement once inserted in to the lineup

  10. #50

    Re: Mayocks Mock has us taking...

    [quote user="Kruunch"][quote user="Neverend"]Hope that doesnt happen. I thought his mock was supposed to be released at 8 pm, i guess its just a review

    I agree with slipknottin, if we're going offensive lineman ill take some interior lineman. Glenn might be falling, zeilter's a great run blocker, silatolu is a beast with great potential

    no way are the giants taking an offensive tackle. not that it wouldn't make sense, but can't see it.[/quote]

    I'd also rather take a more versatile guy than Martin.

    Glenn, Silatolu or even Osemele in the second round (all versatile OG/OT prospects with high grade builds/athletic qualities).

    Jonathan Martin is Mike Adams plus about 20 IQ points.[/quote]I would love to land Glenn. The fact that he can plug in at LG or RT is a huge plus.

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