[quote user="rainierjef"][quote user="nycsportzfan"][quote user="BlueSanta"][quote user="nycsportzfan"]

[quote user="BlueSanta"]this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.

They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.
[/quote] Well, to be fair, its all part of the draft process.. Sometimes your gonna love the picks, and sometimes your not.. What are u supposed to do, say u like something when u don't? Its not like Reese dosen't miss on picks lke every other GM.. He did pick Jay Alford, Andre Brown, Bryan Kehl, Ramses Barden, Travis Beckum(not enough production to warrent the pick yet), Andre Woodson, Phillip Dillard, Stoney Woodson, Clint Sintim, Rhett Bomar..etc I realize that i noted some mid to late rd picks, but i did so to show that there are misses mixed in throughout all rds.. I think there is enough misses to at least give your true feelings about the picks when there made.. Not to menton, whats the point of discussing picks, if all your gonna do is say , "i dislike the pick, but i trust reese"??? All u can do is make your case to why u do or don't like the pick and try and have "adult" like discussions.. TO me, theres more children like responses from the people who are all "reese rules" then the ones that are trying to be objective and discuss why they dont like the picks.. Its like your a enemy just becuase u don't agree with the pick.. I've put in enough time on these boards and int he draft threads, to at least be able to discuss why or why not i like a pick, without being treated like a dink, i would think..

I wonder where were all these people the last 4yrs, when i was all most annoyingly so having to debate as hard as ever, how great our drafts, and our UDF pickups were.. There were so many nay sayers, it was crazy!But, that was ok? The one yr i have some questions about some of our picks, is the one yr that the consensus loves it...lol Its strange, becasue the past several yrs, in my opinion, were hands down, easier drafts to sit back and say, "hey, we just killed it".. Thats just my opinoin of course, and i think the drafts of the past several yrs kinda support my arguement, seeing how those are the drafts, that got us saying " in reese we trust", right?

This is litteraly the first time i felt that we drafted just like other teams, and didn't just snatch up great values throughout.. Even when u do just snatch up great values, some won't hit, like a Ramses Barden, or Andre Brown proves, but it certainly in my opinon,gives u a better chance at hitting, i would think? I loved the fact we would take guys like Greg Jones in RD 6, while other teams passed em by because of this or that, and we'd just roll the dice on the fact the guy knows what hes doing, based on his production..

Either way, i dont think the draft was a big loss or anything, but i certainly have more questions about this draft, then any other draft we've had under reese...


Ok im gonna make 1 last attempt to cheer you up by addressing the 2 main picks you had a problem with, Wilson and Randle.

I know you were a Martin > Wilson guy. I have np with that, even though I didnt agree. The problem I have is that even though I was a Wilson guy, I acknowledged that they were very close prospects in value. I could understand why some had Martin over Wilson, even if I didnt agree. However, I do not think you do at all with regards to Wilson, I think you fell in love with Martin. Now, Ill make my case:

Look at it this way. Would you have rather given up 18 spots in the 4th and 22 picks in the 2nd round to choose Martin over Wilson? I am a Wilson guy, but I sure wouldnt have been happy if we had given up that much for Wilson over Martin. I think that is crazy. They were rated way to closely to give up that much for 1 over the other. Look at those 22 spots in the 2nd round, there are some pretty impressive guys who got selected there between pick 36 and pick 58 including the likes of Fleener, Glenn, Alshon Jeffery, Jenkins, Bobby Wagner, Jonathan Martin and many more. Look a those guys in the 4th, its a prettyi good list too, including Orson Charles, Ladarius Green, Evan Rodriguez, Robert Turbin, Nigel Bradham, Joe Adams to name a few.

Look at it from a value standpoint using the draft pick value chart. The Bucs moved up 5 spots from pick 36(540 point value) to pick 31(600 point value). That's a 60 point value jump they went up to get Martin.

You have been on record saying you liked the Bucs draft, I too like some of the players they got, but look how much they gave up to get Martin over Wilson:

-They swapped 2nd rounders , pick 36 to pick 58(-220 point value) and they swapped 4th rounders as well dropping from pick 101 to pick 126(-50 value.)

So from a pure value standpoint they gave up 270 points, roughly the equivalent of a mid 3rd round selection(equivalent of pick 76) in order to take Martin over Wilson. Look at pick 76 and tell me the guys on the board at that time arent worth more than whatever difference you percieve in these 2 backs. Here is a short list of player selected in that area: Brandon Brooks(pick 76), Mohamed Sanu(83), Bernard Pierce (84), Sean Spence(86), Demario Davis(77)

That is INSANELY poor value drafting on their part with regards to that pick.

Now lets talk about Ruben Randle. I know you werent fond of that pick either. Based on film and production I understood your point completely. You wanted Sanu(among others) over Randle. The problem is we have a fraction of the info on these 2 that Reese has. He interviewed both, he has doctors reports, strength training reports, intelligence tests etc . I have to believe there was a problem with Sanu that we couldnt see on film. I think there was likely a similar problem with regards to Cordy Glenn as well, a guy I liked very much for us.

I suspect, based on his answer to the media question posed to him leading up the draft about which NY team he would prefer to play for, that Sanu is not a smart kid. Not because he answered "The Jets", but because he answered period. Why alienate a prospective NFL team from drafting you? The moment I read that I knew 2 thing were probable 1) his interview with the Giants went very poorly. and/or 2) he is an idiot for Alienating a team that showed interest in him by bringing him in for an interview.

Conversely, we could not see how Ruben handled his interview. Maybe he showed aptitude beyond his age. Maybe he showed understanding of the offense leading the coaches to believe he can step in sooner. We have no idea what he showed. But whatever he did show, Reese liked it, and I trust Reese. Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say

this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.

[/quote] As far as the value thing, it depends on who's board u look at.. Also, u gotta look at what the team(bucs in this case), all ready have, before analyzing what players they missed out on with pick they traded to move up and get martin.. They all ready drafted Mason Foster last yr, and just got Lavonte David this yr, and they just got Doug Martin, so that kinda makes Bernard PIerce a back they would never draft, especially with Blounte all ready on boad, and then they signed Vincent Jackson, and have Mike Williams and Arrelious Benn at WR, hence they have no need for Mo Sanu.. They even signed Carl Nicks in the offseason, which kinda rules out Brandon Brooks.. I'm making this point, because knowing that, they made the makes the move even better in my opinon of course..

But, back to saying, "i'm gonna try and cheer you up".. Did u see my last sentence, my friend?

EITHER WAY, I DON"T THINK THE DRAFT WAS A BIG LOSS OR ANYTHING BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS DRAFT THEN ANY OTHER FROM REESE.. Thats all i'm saying.. I do like the bucs draft alot, and its based on what they did in the offseason as well as what they did in the draft. For me, i combine everythign, and make my opinion, based on that.. The draft is a extension of FA'cy, and UDF's, are a extension of both, in my opinion..

I'll i'm getting at, is we mines well not even have draft threads and prospect threads, and talk about what players we think are good and bad, if were all just gonna say, "i don't care who we drafted, becasue in reese we trust"..lol Don't u feel we put in just alittle to much time on theese draft threads over the yrs, to be that way? don't u thnk we looked at just alittle to much film to be that way? I mean, if so, i will officaly be done on these draft threads, becasue its utterly a waste of time..


i agree and cosign this 100%

the whole reason why i started film studying the players more this year to be prepared for the draft is because of last year. we drafted JPP i was thoroughly pissed the **** off but i was pissed without a clue of who JPP was, the type of player he was his stats, his motor or love for the game. all i saw was DE and said omfg another DE.

When you put so much time into researching players some guys stand out to you and you feel that they fit this team best, sort of like an investment into the player, almost like your lobbying to others on these very boards why he fits the system. i use to be one of those poster that would say to someone like Nycsport, redeye STFU you fake *** couch GM, but seeing the time these guys put into; in their spare time of course cause we have lives, but nonetheless time into research. its unfair to say

this is what happens when armchair GMs fall in love with prospects.
They get their hopes crushed when Reese, a smarter man, doesn't agree with them.

we don't fall in love we simply see the benefits of the pairing of said player and team. this is the first year where i can name players the teams they played for, ranks and where they were graded all the way into the 7th round. i rather not listen to analyst i rater form my own conclusions, i've played this sport maybe not at the collegiate level but semi-pro ( brooklyn seminole ) high-school ( midwood hornets) pop warner ( prospect heights blue hawks) i have good knowledge of the game to look at tape whatever tape i can get and assess. might not be the same tape jerry is looking at but nonetheless its something. and until you put the time into it yourself you have no ground to call anyone anything, cause as fan's when gildbride calls a ****ing shotgun draw you say to yourself i would of done this, or when we zone instead of blitz you think we can do this better guess what your Arm chair coaching, when you ***** about Osi's *****ing and what you would do with his contract your Arm chair General managing.

just an un-narrow perspective


now to the bucs moving up and the giants selecting wilson.

1. we will never know if wilson>martin or martin>wilson on reese's boards, he can say whatever he likes to us and the media you have to take it with a grain of salt and hope hes right.

the fact that denver was ahead of us the general consensus was that they were going to take either a DT/TE certainly not a RB; this is as far as consensus goes, pure speculation.
the buc's moved up i would like to think that the broncos knew who the buc's wanted to trade up for so that is doesn't impede who they wanted to get so that rules out RB as the broncos choices.
i can be wrong on that.

with the Buc's taking Martin who has surpassed Wilson as the second best RB on all analyst boards, including my own. its only fair to say that or deduct that martin was high on the giants board cause they chose the next best RB.

Jerry went on to say that they thought there was going to be a run on RB's in the second, that kind of hints a little that i might be a reach cause he predicted something that never happened only one RB got taken in the second.

which leads me to think had Martin been there he was probably going to be the pick. no fumble issues / good speed / can pick up blitzers / power back. he would of been week 1 ready, wilson has to work on keeping it high and tight and learning to pick up blocks in passing situations.

i also feel that RB probably was high on our boards of the pick @ 32 reese said the talent took a steep drop off after wilson. the buc's only traded up cause they probably thought the giant were going in the direction of RB and who was the next best after Richardson by consensus? Martin.

this altered what we possibly could of did at 32. if richardson was the only RB taken would reese of thought that there was going to be a run on RB's in the second? does he go another route say Still or Fleener? and hope that RB's just keep getting looked over until 63? if the buc's never traded up and it went as planned only change is giants don't pick wilson, denver picks whoever, then bucs in the second take martin and 9er's take either wilson or james and that leaves us with either wilson or james....

but we will never know so its a mute argument fellas

[/quote] well said.. I agree..