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Thread: Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by CowboysSuck View Post
    Can we end this thread. We are giving Simms, currently Giant Nation's biggest troll, more attention than he deserves.
    Never. LOL

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Well you make an interesting point regarding the "conditions" of Eli's eliteness.
    IF Eli has great protection, IF Eli has a good running game, IF Eli has WR's that create separation, he is Elite. Well so would many, many other QB's. I have always said that Eli needs really good players around him, to fulfill the scenario we just described.
    Is that "elite"? A guy who has to have these specific conditions around him to succeed? My view is no. Others clearly disagree.

    Now lets look at Phil. Despite the claims to the contrary, Phil spent most of his career getting killed due to a horrific O line. To me, only Davis Carr has been hit more often than Phil in NFL history. Phil had below average pass catchers. The list of mediocrity at the WR position is troubling. He did have Bavaro who was great, but when Phil threw for 4000 yards, he didn't have Bavaro. He didn't have a single guy catch 50 balls.

    Ultimately the conditions on the ground matter. Eli has had two generations of outstanding pass catchers. He has had much better O line protection. In other words, Phil did it with far, far less. In my view, he was simply better. Not just because of these factors, but because of his raw ability and skill level to play the game. Phil was just a better passer, had a better release, was a better field general. And Eli's "bad" is really, really bad. Phil was never as bad as we've seen the past 4 weeks.
    This topic will be argued by Giants fans forever. It will never be resolved. But hopefully when the agenda's are put away, a more calm and intelligent debate can be had.
    These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

    Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play now than when we won SuperbowlXLII. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

    Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

    Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB. However, the argument that Philm Simms was the better QB is a legitimate one. The guy was tough as nails and so very talented. In another system, I think he would have had way better stats. Heck, there was a reason that a fottball smarty pants like the late BIll Walsh wanted to draft him so bad.
    Last edited by BuffyBlueII; 11-19-2012 at 01:34 PM.

  3. #763
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuffyBlueII View Post
    These are good points but I disagree with you on a couple.

    Last year, we had the worst running game in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had one of the worst defenses in NFL and Eli Manning still led us to victories. We had a horrible offensive line and Eli Manning still led us to victories. The WR corps is one that Eli Manning was instrumental in developing. Heck, our WRs are completely different in regard to personnell as well as style of play. Another thing to take in to account is that none of the WRs that have left NY Giants during Eli Manning era have been as productive since.

    Yes, Phil Simms didn’t have great receivers but he did a great running game, incredible defense and a better offensive line than Eli Manning. Phil Simms got hit a lot because the guy was a statue back there. Folks go on and on about how goofy and clumsy Eli is but he is way more mobile in the pocket than Phil ever was.

    Phil Simms was staid and didn’t read defenses the way Eli Manning does and he left a lot of open receivers out there. Phil had a connon of an arm and as far as a raw passer, was one of the best. Overall however, Eli Manning in my opinion is just the better QB.
    If you use just 2011 to judge Eli, then you have a good case. All these things are true about our team last season. And if we saw a continuation of last years play, then you would have a case there too. But......
    -One season out of 9 isn't the standard.
    - if the play continued this season, you could make the argument that he has become a great QB. But he is playing like a rookie this year. 12 TD's and 11 picks are worse numbers than most NFL QB's this season. Its not a small drop off...its a huge one. And his poor plays are really bad. I mean real "shake your head" kind of bad.

    I am very disappointed that he has played the way he has. I was actually starting to believe that he had become a much better QB. And BTW..as bad as his numbers are, they should be worse. He threw two passes in the hands of defenders at our near the attacking endzone in SF and in Dallas that should have been picked and run back for defensive TD's.

    So we have to step back and take a look at the good and bad of Eli. His career so far in its entirety. What we see is a guy with flashes of greatness. A guy who put together two great playoff runs. A guy with a knack for late game greatness at times. But we also see a guy who is extremely inconsistent, who is capable still of horrendous play that only rookie QB's should have, and a guy who has a generally "uneven" level of play for 9 years.
    So I see a franchise QB, who has done some great things with us, but also has weaknesses and unbroken bad habits that keep him off the list of "elite" QB's.
    Last edited by Morehead State; 11-19-2012 at 01:39 PM.
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  4. #764
    Moderator YATittle1962's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imgrate View Post
    35% of starting qbs are elite? I don't think that is the literal definition
    the literal definition is

    a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
    b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

    I believe Eli is among the best in the league

    there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company

  5. #765
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    Quote Originally Posted by YATittle1962 View Post
    the literal definition is

    a. A group or class of persons or a member of such a group or class, enjoying superior intellectual, social, or economic status
    b. The best or most skilled members of a group:

    I believe Eli is among the best in the league

    there might be 5 QBs in the league better than him ....I would say that would put him among elite company
    Well there are literal definitions and there are football definitions.
    I think "elite" QB's need to be more consistently great that Eli.
    Right now I think there are 5.
    Rodgers, Brees, Peyton, Brady and Ben. I thought Eli and Ben were at a similar level, but I'm growing more convinced of Ben's greatness. And I'm getting a little uncertain of Eli's.
    "Elite" QB's don't go through a 5 game stretch with 1 TD and 6 picks. And its been uglier than those numbers suggest.
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  6. #766
    All-Pro Roosevelt's Avatar
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    nygfanmaybe here are a few here that have been waiting a long time for this...and to be honest, I knew the day was coming. Eli is elite if he is protected, has receivers that can create separation, and has some sort of running game to keep the defense honest. In this scenario, he would be MVP every year, however we may never know. I compare him favorably to QB's like Brady and even his brother. If you take away one or two of those aspects and they become very average...especially the protection and we only have to look at our SB's to see what you can do to Brady if you don't give him time.
    After last year I thought he was right up there with the best, but not now. The last few weeks we have seen him go back to the things that got him in trouble years ago. It might be because he's trying to do too much but it really doesn't matter the reason. We know how well he can play and we know there is another side to his game as well.

    But the thing that has made Eli so special is not his overall game. Let's face it he might not throw the greatest passes and he's not athletic where he can beat anyone with his feat. But what he is is a winner. When the pressure is at it's greatest, this guy makes pays. That's why we love Eli Manning.

    There are QB's out there that can succeed without great protection...for a while...but it seems these guys end up on the sideline for a stretch just about every year. How many times have you seen teams with QB's like these that head into the playoffs with their top QB out with injury?
    Not sure exactly what your point is here. Every team is looking to pressure the QB, and injuries can happen to anyone. But then take guys like John Elway and Joe Montana for instance, these guys could make plays with their feet and they are two of the greatest to ever play. I think that's what Phil was saying when he said that Eli cannot do it on his own.

    I think the real problem here on this board is that there are people here who lived through the Simms era and became very attached to him. They don't want anyone else to come and take his crown, and that is understandable. I would venture to say that it happens all the time with other fans of other teams. I can only imagine if anyone ever went to SF and challenged Montana's legend. It would be ugly would be putting it mildly.
    That's silly. That's like saying we don't want Tuck to be more successful than Michael Strahan. Of course we want Eli to play well.

    Also, have you ever heard about Steve Young? You ought to read about him. But of course the difference being that Steve replaced Joe during Joe's career.


    Like it was said before, elite is a subjective word.
    Elite is not subjective. Elite is the best of the best. The cream of the crop. To dominate at your position. Now if you believe he is or isn't that is your business and it's something we can all debate.

    There is no set standard such as certain stats over a certain time to define it. Like I said before, I consider Eli elite because of the fact that he is chosen to endorse so many things, especially the ads that try to control the evils of the world. Not only has Eli accomplished a lot on the field, but he has gone about it in a way that is very honorable in a place that is not very conducive to such behavior. IMO, that makes him elite...but again, it will always just be an opinion when talking about a word like "elite".
    Eli is a great ambassador for the game of football no doubt. But like the HOF, we're only talking about what he does on the field.

  7. #767
    All-Pro Roosevelt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Just when the conversation gets intelligent and non-agendized, you go and try to drag it back down into the sewer.
    Take advantage of the "ignore poster" feature. It works very well.

  8. #768
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roosevelt View Post
    Take advantage of the "ignore poster" feature. It works very well.
    its like staring at the sun Rosie. I can't look away.
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    its like staring at the sun Rosie. I can't look away.
    lol.

    I'm telling you man the board has a totally new feel to it. I believe you could call it "normal."

  10. #770
    agreed about Eli playing poorly as of late, but I look at it this way and it is rather simple, Even though he has looked bad for several games, you still have to feel good in the fact that Eli Manning is the giants Qb come Sunday....Would it be a big deal if he out played A-rod on sunday? of course not, he has done it before on the biggest stage...The reason I have so much confidence in him is because we all know how hard he works and he has always found a way to get it fixed...Guy has never had a losing season, has been an all pro, great in playoffs, great on the road, as good as it gets late in games, and a 2 time super bowl MVP..my bet is on Eli this week.

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