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  1. #1201
    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    And most of the time when the Chargers and Colts played, Peyton was outperformed by Rivers. One could say Rivers beat him OR maybe that the Chargers D just had Peyton's number all those years? Look at Eli vs. the Redskins defense in recent years. I wouldn't really say Grossman outplayed Eli lol.



    Perhaps you are right. I see it as a disservice to all the other players myself but I'll learn to accept it in time.
    BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    BTW I agree with you in that it wasn't Eli versus Brady or the whole Patriots team. Just going over talking points about a person's career and how they may be summed up.
    With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.

  3. #1203
    Veteran Rusty192's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    I don't think one extra SB over Peyton really does enough to warrant having him in the discussion with Peyton on terms of individual talent and achievements. That to me shows that the Giants are a better franchise overall than the Colts were. It has been mentioned a few times in the past on how they focused too much on putting everything in Peyton's hands by focusing on drafting offensive weapons for him when the OL and D clearly needed to be boosted. Thankfully, our FO doesn't do that.

    Again, I respectfully disagree on your view of Eli beating Tom. That isn't fair to guys like Wilfork on the Pats D or JPP on the Giants D when you make it out to be some 1-on-1 battle. The schemes and players they faced were completely different. I feel the same way when people say "Rivers beats Peyton most of the time". That's simply not how it works.
    So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

    You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.
    Last edited by Rusty192; 11-28-2012 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #1204
    All-Pro Rudyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    With the way QBs are being propped up more and more as the NFL evolves, you are probably right on that talking point. You could even argue that Brees is the beneficiary of some good Oline play over the years but pundits won't remember most of the big men in 20 years or so.
    Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.

    MUCH better.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty192 View Post
    So when peyton accomplishes things they are by his own merit? but when Eli wins twice as many SB's as his brother its because the Giants are a better org? hmm..

    You do know that Eli "beat tom" is just a quicker way of saying Eli beating bradys team, the Pats. Yeah they dont play against each other literally. But that's just how it will always be remembered as going down. Eli >Tom in the championship. like krunch said. that will be the perception.
    It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

    Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.

    Drew Brees benefits from Sean Payton running up the score.
    I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.

  6. #1206
    All-Pro Rudyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.

    Heck, the first Manning is considered a pretty good QB too and people recognize he couldn't do much with what the Saints provided him in the 70's.



    I don't see anything wrong with running up the score. As long as there is time left on the clock, you keep pushing.
    It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.

    MUCH better.

  7. #1207
    Veteran Rusty192's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    It depends on which accomplishment you want to cite. A Superbowl is a team accomplishment and since there are a decent amount of examples in NFL history of baddies winning one or at least getting to the dance (Grossman again haha), I don't think it should be weighted as much versus achievements that are more individual like regular season MVPs, game-to-game performances, and so forth.
    Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P

  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudyy View Post
    It's not a problem, but it pads his stats just a tad. Not saying he's not great, but yeah.
    True...true. You could argue Eli's statistics suffer because we love to run it in the red zone more than most teams. KG's system isn't exactly a great one if you plan to make a HoF based on stats lol.

    Why not? The rest of the team is playing too I'd imagine? Also, Grossman lost :P
    You can't be carried like Dilfer was for the Ravens to a regular season MVP award. Big Ben has two SB victories but how much can we really respect that first victory on an individual basis? It's not as cut and dry as Eli having more SBs over Peyton. One could also bring up the horrible playoff performances he had outside of the 2007 and 2011 seasons as well.

    My point about Grossman was that playoff success can't be awarded to the QB all the time because you have guys like him who are only there to avoid huge mistakes. Not saying Eli is that guy but it's my way of saying we don't want to set a precedent of measuring QBs by victories.

  9. #1209
    Veteran Rusty192's Avatar
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    What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?

  10. #1210
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty192 View Post
    What I have gathered is that when a guy like Peyton wins stuff, It's cuz he's so amazing. When Eli wins its because its the team. Not quite fair don't you think?
    I haven't said that or eluded to that once. Peyton's sole SB ring also happened to be a year when the Colts actually played some sound defense as well.

    Look at 2009 Eli. He was arguably better that year than the rest (2011 excluded) but it didn't really matter much because we had Can't Cover Brown and Aaron Rouse on our team due to KP going down. Sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are as a QB because you have some idiot on the defense who constantly makes mistakes in the secondary or perhaps your DL failed to generate any pressure in a crucial playoff game.

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