Phil Simms: "No, Eli Is Not One Of The Elites....."

[BuffyBlueII]

I agree with a lot of this post. You're right, sometimes we argue our positions and come across as if we are taking shots at players or coaches or whatever, when that is really not the intention of the point were trying to make. That is why some people (mostly the loonies) labeled me a hater.

But you must admit you did make comments stating that if Eli played in Simms' system and era, he would have dominated it, and Phil would have struggled with this team. You followed that up by saying Parcells would have done back-flips to have Eli, and tried to diminish Phil's SB performance by suggesting it was due to soft defense. You also tried to discredit him for our success in 1990 as well. So while you seem to be in gentlemen-mode now you certainly weren't earlier in the thread.

One thing I want to touch on is when we analyze the differences in the game, we need to consider not only how things have changed on the field, but off it as well. I've said this many times, and will say it again; the Giants did have a QB coach back in 1981. That is why Phil was very interested in playing for Bill Walsh. When Phil was worked out by Walsh, he released that this man was something special and extremely knowledgeable about the QB position. The Giants on the other hand, didn't hire a QB coach until 1991 and that guy was Jim Fassel. Fassel played a major role in Phil's development as a QB. Film study before Jim was nothing like it is today. Just the technological aspect alone that allows these players to study the game is light-years ahead in comparison to what it was. So when we talk about Eli being better at reading defenses and things of that nature, let's agree that he damned well better be.

The other thing I would debate you on is whether Eli could "be off" and we still win. Up until the end of 2007 I would say that was exactly what was happening. Plaxico Burress made it so that all Eli had to do was chuck up in his direction and somehow Plax would come down with it time after time. Without Plaxico we weren't winning that SB, period.

And In more recent years as Eli has progressed and continues to wow us in the 2-minute drill, he does struggle at times, and get's bailed out by his teammates. It works both ways.

There were a lot of lean years before Phil Simms became a Giant, and I have never discounted him. I've always thought the lack of talent surrounding him as well as Parcells influence on the offensive system, made it very difficult for a QB to perform at a high level.

And with that. I gotta get back to work!

I didn't intend to be "ungentlemanly" in my previous post comparing the SuperBowl performances. What Phil did in SuperBowl XXI was incredible. However, Eli did go up against a tougher defense in SuperBowl XLII and their head coach was Bill Bellichek.

I wasn't trying to diminish Phil's 1990 season but folks really can't definitively state that we would have blown Buffalo Bills out in SuperBowl if Phil Simms had played the game. Jeff Hosstettler was the QB and he brought a different dynamic to the field. Yes, I like our chances against Buffalo Bills with Phil Simms as QB but I really don't know if we would have beaten them. I tend to think that if Phil were in that game that it would have turned in to a shoot out and I don't think we could have won that way against Buffalo Bills. However, we will never know.

Heck, if Phil didn't get hurt in 1990, he and Eli's 2011 seasons may have been very close. Unfortunately there is no way to tell.

I see your point in regard to the QB coach. However, there are not many QBs in NFL that can read defenses as well as Eli can. Also, Eli has not had a QB coach that is of note since coming in to NFL but I think the point you are making is that the entire field has been revolutionized in the time between Phil and Eli and that Eli has benefited from that. Okay, I can agree with that but lets be honest, Eli has basically had a QB coach since he was a kid in Peyton and Archie.

Plexiglass was Eli's security blanket. He could chuck it to him and Plexiglass would snag it. I am sure that he relied on Plex being able to do that and as painful as it was for Plex to Cheddar Bob himself and mess up our run, it has made Eli become a better QB. However, Eli Manning's adaptability and ability to evolve his game is a great attribute that he has. With the exception of some of the games with Plexiglass, it is very rare that Eli has an off game and wins. That was not the case with Phil. He also had a security blanket that he could hit over the middle and be sure he would make the catch and that was Mark Bavarro.

If one was better than the other is a debate that will go on more than likely till Eli retires but I think we can all agree that we are happy that neither one of our NY Giant QB legends ever had any off the field legal troubles or drama of note.

I like debating with you Rosie, you are a very knowledgable NY Giants fan.

[Drez]

I
I see your point in regard to the QB coach. However, there are not many QBs in NFL that can read defenses as well as Eli can. Also, Eli has not had a QB coach that is of note since coming in to NFL

He's had Gilbride, Chris Palmer, and Mike Sullivan as QB coaches since being with the Giants, and now Sean Ryan. All of his previous QB coaches have gone on to become OCs in the NFL.

[Roosevelt]

agreed..but nobody is going to forget Phil Simms, as for this thread, IMO simms is just keeping himself in the lime light as much as I love Phil its a little petty for him to make those comments, he is a competitive guy and I think its sour grapes.

You might be right about that. Phil Simms is a competitive guy.

I can still still remember the night he was out buying Pampers for his kids late at the local grocery store and beat me to the check out line. We made eye contact and I knew I was not messin with this dude.

[Roosevelt]

Yeah I think so to....Hoss could scramble out of trouble... Simms was a far better passer both were tough Parcell had stayed Simms would have been the man ... I like Hoss to but always felt Simms got screwed....

Simms got screwed by a bum of a coach. And too make matters worse, some of the fools on this board actually get off on that.

[alentown pa]

You might be right about that. Phil Simms is a competitive guy.

I can still still remember the night he was out by Pampers for his kids late at the local grocery store and beat me to the check out line. We made eye contact and I knew I was not messin with this dude.

lmao that's great Rosey, to bad it wasnt chris simms, you could of easily strong armed him

[alentown pa]

Simms got screwed by a bum of a coach. And too make matters worse, some of the fools on this board actually get off on that.

we make the playoffs in 91 and prbly 92 with him at QB... If you look at the roster those years they were more talented than the 93 team that was only a win away from home field through out...We won with some ex broncos....Ray H..was a joke.

[byron]

we make the playoffs in 91 and prbly 92 with him at QB... If you look at the roster those years they were more talented than the 93 team that was only a win away from home field through out...We won with some ex broncos....Ray H..was a joke.

You add those two years of numbers to his already impressive career the talk is different around here....Ah well i don't get into the whole comparison discussion ....These two QB's have given giants fans a lot to be proud of ...alone with some great football

[BuffyBlueII]

He's had Gilbride, Chris Palmer, and Mike Sullivan as QB coaches since being with the Giants, and now Sean Ryan. All of his previous QB coaches have gone on to become OCs in the NFL.

You may disagree with me but I don't think any of those guys are worth a damn.

[BuffyBlueII]

lmao that's great Rosey, to bad it wasnt chris simms, you could of easily strong armed him

You could have punched him where his spleen was.

[BuffyBlueII]

You add those two years of numbers to his already impressive career the talk is different around here....Ah well i don't get into the whole comparison discussion ....These two QB's have given giants fans a lot to be proud of ...alone with some great football

Thats probably the best thing to do because both these guys are NY Giants legends.

IMO, if Phil Simms had started those two years he would have had the numbers to go to HoF and maybe won another SuperBowl.

I know that Phil should have started over Hoss but I can't hold it against Hoss, he rose to the occasion when it was time.