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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Phil beat all those guys in big spots. The exception was Marino since he never played him in a huge spot.
    not to nit pick and it doenst really matter cause phil was great imo but he never beat Kelly in a big spot either...when did he play against him other than a cold rainy December in 1990?

  2. #962
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    Quote Originally Posted by giantsfan420 View Post
    wait, i could have sworn I've seen you make big deals out of people saying eli beat brady, favre, rodgers, etc etc bc "the qbs arent facing each other, they're facing the defenses."
    isnt that the definition of hypocritical? to apply a set of standards to something while ignoring it for something else?
    You're trying too hard.
    Get well soon 80.

  3. #963
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    Quote Originally Posted by alentown pa View Post
    not to nit pick and it doenst really matter cause phil was great imo but he never beat Kelly in a big spot either...when did he play against him other than a cold rainy December in 1990?
    yes...G reminded me of my faulty memory.
    Get well soon 80.

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by alentown pa View Post
    I'm not trying to make an argument against simms, I think picking btwn Eli and Simms is lame, they were both great and two of my favorites, but I disagree with you about Simms not having a lot of weapons to work with, Joe morris was 1,400 yard back at one point, Bavaro was one of the best TE's in the game, and the giants had an excellent offesive line. I always felt Manuel was very good reciever as well, so to say he had little to no weapons is wrong imo.
    wanted to also add that I found Bobby Johnson to be decent as well.

  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Agree to disagee. Phil was a just a better football player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dline83 View Post
    Just wondering what makes you say that? Eli will own ever passing record for the Giants when he is finished, has won two Super Bowls and two Super Bowl MVP awards and has led us to multiple conference titles. I think Simms was a great player but he was injured a fair amount and also had his early struggles, 1980 he threw 15 td and 19 picks and only completed 48 percent of his passes. The next year he threw 11 td and 9 picks but still only completed 54 percent of his throws. He then was injured on and off for a season and a half, missing one entire season. He was then benched, came into a game against the eagles and hurt his thumb and was out again for the season. If you do not remember, he was pretty unpopular in the ny area. It was at this time that an assistant coach convinced Simms to spend more time studying, watching film, and learning the teams offense/audibles. It was after this that Simms started to produce at a much higher level, going on to be voted to the pro bowl, get MVP pro bowl honors (with three touchdowns) and had his best seasons in 85 and 86 and an amazing Super Bowl performance gaining him the Super Bowl MVP award. After the 86 season he had some highs and some lows, playing a pretty bad game in the playoffs against the rams in 89 and then posting the highest qb rating and having a great year in 90 before breaking his foot. He was injured on and off for the rest of his career posting one more great season in 93 only to have shoulder surgery after the season. He was released by the Giants that offseason and retired. Simms only completed over 60 percent of his passes twice in 92 and 93, had four seasons with more or the same int as td throws, and only had a qb rating of over 80 6 times in his 14 seasons. In comparison, Eli has never missed a game, has completed 60 percent or more of his passes 5 our of 9 seasons, and has only one season throwing more int than td, his rookie year. There are a lot of other intangibles you can use as well, the evolution of the nfl defense, the rules changing, the physicality of the players...the list goes on and on, and can be used in ways to support claims off each qb. I understand your point of it being a different era but the injury situation and numbers, at least to me, make it a no brainier...Eli is the best qb to ever play for the giants in my mind and you are certainly untitled to your opinion, I'm just wondering what leads you to the outcome that Simms was/is the better qb of the two?
    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    So your view is based on a bunch of stats. I disagree with that standard.
    The eras (and rules) are very different. Its my view that IF Phil had the kind of support from the coaching staff, IF he didn't play in a time where a defender could take two steps after a pass was thrown and try to kill the QB, IF Phi played where the receivers couldn't be breathed on after 5 yards, IF Phil played in a pass first offense...he would have put up legendary numbers.
    But of course we will never know this. All we can do is consider all the qualities of each player and try to apply them in some kind of even comparison, which is near impossible. No QB (except probably David Carr) was hit more often and harder than Phil Simms over an entire career. And to have the kind of career that he did considering everything he overcame, is historic. Absolutely historic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dline83 View Post
    My view is supported by a bunch of stats not made by it, I watched Simms play and Eli play and in my opinion Eli is the superior player. Your one and only point is always about the different era to back up your claim. If you use that logic, it is basically saying that the game has changed so much that comparisons can only be made to strengthen your argument, ie you can not compare Simms to Manning because it is a different time. What if Manning played during the time Simms did, do you think he would have preformed worse than Simms? Eli played in a run first offense for many years, and your statement about comparing the qualities of the players is spot on. Compare the fact that an assistant coach had to convince Simms to put more time in learning the offense and the audibles to Manning being a film room and preparation junky and I think that speaks volumes about some of their qualities. Is the only reason you think Simms is better because he played with different rules at a different time?
    I'm just wondering why you think Simms is a better football player? Is it just based on how the game was played then in comparison to now? I'm not trying to be a jerk or push this discussion further than it is, I am just honestly curious...
    Last edited by Dline83; 11-26-2012 at 08:00 PM.

  6. #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by alentown pa View Post
    wanted to also add that I found Bobby Johnson to be decent as well.
    OK now hold on...
    In the context of Giants receivers at the time, Lionel Manual, Bobby Johnson, Ernie Gray and Stephen Baker were good players. In the context of the NFL?........They were less than mediocre as a WR corps. One of the worst in the league.

    None of these guys would be considered in the top 50 WR's at the time.
    We now have two guys who are definitely top 10. I said in his rookie year that barring serious injury, Hakeem Nicks will go down as the greatest WR in Giants history. I now believe that more than ever.

    Also someone said that Phil had a great O line in front of him. That's a load of crap. Now once Jumbo and Moore were drafted, he had a good O line. Before that (for most of his career) that O line was horrific. Phil was hit harder and more often than any QB (except David Carr) in NFL history.
    Eli has had every advantage in his high school, college and pro career. He was groomed to be an NFL QB. His Father even dictated where he would end up on draft day. I give him great credit for making the most of it. He's not a great athlete. And he works his *** off. But Phil was thrown into the snake pit and asked to survive on his own. He did more than survive. He thrived.
    Get well soon 80.

  7. #967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dline83 View Post
    I'm just wondering why you think Simms is a better football player? Is it just based on how the game was played then in comparison to now? I'm not trying to be a jerk or push this discussion further than it is, I am just honestly curious...
    he had an all time great arm. And he was very accurate as well. He stood tall in the pocket and was willing to take a direct hit in order to wait for a guy to break open. He was a great leader and field general. he was the QB during the most dominant era in my lifetime for our team. And in his most important game as a pro, he had an all time great performance.
    And as I said, he did it while having to overcome as much adversity as any NFL QB that ever succeeded. He would run the stadium stairs while the rest of the team practiced to rehab his knee. A knee he tore up in the end zone at Giants stadium while the fans cheered his injury.
    Get well soon 80.

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    OK now hold on...
    In the context of Giants receivers at the time, Lionel Manual, Bobby Johnson, Ernie Gray and Stephen Baker were good players. In the context of the NFL?........They were less than mediocre as a WR corps. One of the worst in the league.

    None of these guys would be considered in the top 50 WR's at the time.
    We now have two guys who are definitely top 10. I said in his rookie year that barring serious injury, Hakeem Nicks will go down as the greatest WR in Giants history. I now believe that more than ever.

    Also someone said that Phil had a great O line in front of him. That's a load of crap. Now once Jumbo and Moore were drafted, he had a good O line. Before that (for most of his career) that O line was horrific. Phil was hit harder and more often than any QB (except David Carr) in NFL history.
    Eli has had every advantage in his high school, college and pro career. He was groomed to be an NFL QB. His Father even dictated where he would end up on draft day. I give him great credit for making the most of it. He's not a great athlete. And he works his *** off. But Phil was thrown into the snake pit and asked to survive on his own. He did more than survive. He thrived.
    the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.

  9. #969
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    Quote Originally Posted by alentown pa View Post
    the line simms has in front of him in 86 was well above average and as you said the line that included Jumbo was very good as well...you don't have to sell me on the greatness of Phil Simms I agree, but where you seem to like to accuse people of being an Eli homer, it seems to me your a Simms homer, nothing wrong with that, just seems to be the case...BTW I was half kidding about Bobby Johnson, although he did put up better numbers in his time with us than Manningham.
    Brad Benson and Billy Ard on his blind side. Brad Benson had one good game in his entire career as a Giant, against Dexter Manley. Maybe no one player was more responsible for Phil getting killed more than Benson. He has a nice car dealership though.
    The only good thing about Billy Ard was that he went to college with my brother at Wake. He did say that Ard was a nice guy.
    Get well soon 80.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Brad Benson and Billy Ard on his blind side. Brad Benson had one good game in his entire career as a Giant, against Dexter Manley. Maybe no one player was more responsible for Phil getting killed more than Benson. He has a nice car dealership though.
    The only good thing about Billy Ard was that he went to college with my brother at Wake. He did say that Ard was a nice guy.
    lmao about the car dealer ship...you say they were horrific, do you mean in pass protection or overall? Because they paved the way for some big rushing seasons.

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