1. #122181

    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Morehead State"]

    [quote user="bigblue4417"][quote user="DavenIII"]TBH honest Lando you are scaring me a little, what if I told you some story in jest one day...one you just go run to the cops with it?

    What if one of my Ex-Gf's had a vendetta against me and told you a completely untrue story about me...would you go running to the cops?

    you seem a little bit insane here....you just believe everything everyone says to you immediately and are willing to ruin lives over it just because "it's the right thing to do" it's not that simple.

    If you believe it...YES do it go to the cops, but remember it's just a story you are hearing.

    if you SEE it...it's TOTALLY different...if you don't then follow through by reporting it then you are just a terrible person.
    [/quote]
    You are going a little overboard here Daven.

    You know I'm a sensible person. Joe Pa took it sincere enough to pass it on to the AD. That tells you everything you need to know. He was concerned enough to pass it on, just not do what needed to be done because he knew it would ruin the program.

    THEN - Still lets the guy have access to everything in the University and not question him or wonder what he is doing when he takes the kids down there. Think to himself that he is doing it again and he is still turning his back to it. Not only did anyone not say anything, they let it continue.
    [/quote]</p>


    I completely agree. Joe Pa had a larger obligation. And I don't care if he's a mascot or not.</p>[/quote]

    nobody had a bigger obligation tha nthe witness who:

    A) Could of prevented the rape from continuing

    and

    B) calling the police to say what he witnessed. JP didn't witness it.
    [/quote]
    Holy **** Matt. No one is arguing that. We all believe you! It's the truth.

    Once JP was told, he should have done something more than contacting the AD. Then after the AD did nothing he should have gone to the police himself.

    His word holds more weight than anyone's.

  2. #122182
    Hall of Famer MattMeyerBud's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="Morehead State"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Morehead State"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Morehead State"]


    [quote user="DavenIII"][quote user="Morehead State"]I completely agree. Joe Pa had a larger obligation. And I don't care if he's a mascot or not.[/quote]

    Ridiculous.

    the person who heard a story from some random janitor has a larger moral obligation to seek justice then the janitor who witnesses the act himself?

    you are either Trolling or you've become temporarily insane.
    [/quote]</p>


    Well two guys got carted off in handcuffes because they didn't do anything about this "story".</p>


    </p>


    [/quote]

    yea the people who are suppose to handle these things didn't. Notice JP wasn't in cuffs?
    [/quote]</p>


    If he had not passed it on to the AD, he would have. Although his legal exposure is low, the expectations of decent society will not be as lax.</p>


    [/quote]

    I agree he ultimately should of never let it rest but what do you mean? What will society do to him?
    [/quote]</p>


    Get him fired...have him lose his reputation. The things that societies do.</p>[/quote]

    So hes not untouchable? Doesn't that kind of trump your all holy powerful PAterno points?
    Fear the name, appreciate the game

  3. #122183
    Hall of Famer MattMeyerBud's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="DavenIII"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"]wait a minute now im ****in lost here... lando said one thing pappy said the other

    WHO was the guy who saw this and went to Joe Pa?

    Pappy is saying it was a janitor and so was someone else

    and Lando said it was a coach who is now the WRs coach at Penn St.
    [/quote]

    Honestly it's irrelevant...whether it was a Janitor or the WR's coach either way it's his responsibility to make sure this guy was brought to justice any way he could....more so then Joe Pa....who just heard the story....and didn't witness it himself.
    [/quote]

    i just want to know what happened

    I mean i want the story cleared up, maybe we all have different details and thats why we are missing each other
    Fear the name, appreciate the game

  4. #122184
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="Morehead State"]

    I really don't know about that. A lowely janitor seeing a powerful member of the PSU community doing something like that could be very scary.</p>[/quote]

    You can't be serious, I know you would have done more then just tell Joe Pa....and then let it drop and never bring it up again if nothing happened.

  5. #122185
    Hall of Famer MattMeyerBud's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="bigblue4417"][quote user="MattMeyerBud"][quote user="Morehead State"]

    [quote user="bigblue4417"][quote user="DavenIII"]TBH honest Lando you are scaring me a little, what if I told you some story in jest one day...one you just go run to the cops with it?

    What if one of my Ex-Gf's had a vendetta against me and told you a completely untrue story about me...would you go running to the cops?

    you seem a little bit insane here....you just believe everything everyone says to you immediately and are willing to ruin lives over it just because "it's the right thing to do" it's not that simple.

    If you believe it...YES do it go to the cops, but remember it's just a story you are hearing.

    if you SEE it...it's TOTALLY different...if you don't then follow through by reporting it then you are just a terrible person.
    [/quote]
    You are going a little overboard here Daven.

    You know I'm a sensible person. Joe Pa took it sincere enough to pass it on to the AD. That tells you everything you need to know. He was concerned enough to pass it on, just not do what needed to be done because he knew it would ruin the program.

    THEN - Still lets the guy have access to everything in the University and not question him or wonder what he is doing when he takes the kids down there. Think to himself that he is doing it again and he is still turning his back to it. Not only did anyone not say anything, they let it continue.
    [/quote]</p>


    I completely agree. Joe Pa had a larger obligation. And I don't care if he's a mascot or not.</p>[/quote]

    nobody had a bigger obligation tha nthe witness who:

    A) Could of prevented the rape from continuing

    and

    B) calling the police to say what he witnessed. JP didn't witness it.
    [/quote]
    Holy **** Matt. No one is arguing that. We all believe you! It's the truth.

    Once JP was told, he should have done something more than contacting the AD. Then after the AD did nothing he should have gone to the police himself.

    His word holds more weight than anyone's.
    [/quote]

    well this is where i have my issues with your view point

    A) The only place that JP holds more water than his assistnat coach is at penn state in the college football world: NOT WITH THE LAW. So thats just complete horse****

    B) The fact that your still somehow more upset with Paterno, rather than the person not trying to stop the rape is beyond ****in moronic. Stop losing sight of what this is about. Its like your really playing the headline game with this and your better than that
    Fear the name, appreciate the game

  6. #122186
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    [quote user="bigblue4417"]
    Holy **** Matt. No one is arguing that.
    [/quote]

    you are incorrect that is EXACTLY what people are arguing, Morehead in particular is arguing that Joe Pa. bares a larger portion of the blame/responsibility then the actual witness...

    and that's what me and Matt are arguing against....actually witnessing the event puts more of the responsibility on you then the guy you tell the story too....that is all me and Matt are saying.

    we recognize that Joe Pa...didn't go far enough...we aren't arguing against that.

  7. #122187
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!



    Heres part of an article I looked up. Evidentally the janitor reported to "superiors" and the grad asst. reported 2 years later of another incident he witnessed.</P>
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    <LI class=last>Sports</LI>[/list]<INPUT id=title142111804 value="Penn State Abuse Scandal: A Guide And Timeline" type=hidden></INPUT> <INPUT id=modelShortUrl142111804 value=http://n.pr/ti5VGa type=hidden></INPUT> <INPUT id=modelFullUrl142111804 value=http://www.npr.org/2011/11/08/142111804/penn-state-abuse-scandal-a-guide-and-timeline type=hidden></INPUT>
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    <H1>Penn State Abuse Scandal: A Guide And Timeline</H1>
    <DIV id=storybyline class=storylocation>
    <DIV id=res142112332 class="bucketwrap byline">
    <P class=byline>by <SPAN><FONT color=#000000>Bill Chappell</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV id=storytext class=storylocation>
    <DIV id=featuredCommentsMain142111804></DIV>
    <DIV class=dateblock>
    <DIV class=textsize>text size A A A </DIV><SPAN class=date><FONT color=#999999>November 8, 2011</FONT></SPAN> </DIV>


    Former Penn State defensive coordinator Gerald "Jerry" Sandusky has been charged with sexually abusing eight boys following a grand jury investigation that also led to charges against two university officials. Athletic director Tim Curley and a vice president, Gary Schultz, are accused of perjury and failing to report suspected child abuse. Both have stepped down from their posts.</P>


    The scandal has shocked the Penn State community, where legendary head football coach Joe Paterno has long been credited for running a successful by-the-rules program. Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says the investigation is ongoing but that Paterno is "not regarded as a target." However, pressure is mounting for the coach to resign; he has announced that he will retire at the end of the 2011 season.</P>
    <HR>



    Key Figures</P>


    Jerry Sandusky: The former defensive coordinator was charged with sexually abusing eight boys over a 15-year period. Sandusky, 67, maintains he is innocent. He played football at Penn State and was a coach there for 32 years 23 of them as the team's defensive coordinator. He and his wife, Dottie, raised six adopted children.</P>


    Tim Curley: The Penn State athletic director, 57, denies being told of sexual misconduct by Sandusky in 2002 but is accused of covering up allegations tied to the scandal. He was named athletic director on Dec. 30, 1993. Curley went on administrative leave the day before his Nov. 7 arraignment.</P>


    Gary Schultz: As the school's senior vice president for finance and business which gives him oversight of university police Schultz, 62, has been charged with covering up abuse allegations. He served as Penn State's senior vice president and treasurer from 1993 to 2009, when he retired. Schultz returned to the same job in 2011, on a temporary basis. In early 2010, the university named a campus child care center after Schultz, who retired again on Nov. 6.</P>


    Joe Paterno: "Joe Pa," 84, has been an assistant or head coach at Penn State University since 1950. Coming under increasing pressure to resign in the wake of the scandal, he plans to retire at the end of the 2011 season. In a statement, Paterno said, "This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Law enforcement officials say he is not a target in their investigation. Paterno has five children, all of whom attended Penn State.</P>


    Graham Spanier: Spanier, 63, became the university's president in 1995, after serving at universities in Oregon, Nebraska, and New York. A faculty and staff member at Penn State from 1973 to 1982, Spanier's academic background is in sociology and family counseling.</P>


    Mike McQueary: In 2002, the then-graduate assistant told Paterno that he had witnessed Sandusky abusing a boy in a Penn State locker room shower. Paterno informed Curley, who later met with the graduate assistant and Schultz. McQueary, who is now an assistant coach at Penn State, reiterated his statement to the grand jury.</P>


    Jim Calhoun: A temporary worker whose job as a janitor at Penn State lasted only eight months, Calhoun told co-workers and a supervisor in 2000 that he witnessed Sandusky engaging in sexual activity with a boy in a campus locker-room shower. Several staff members later said that Calhoun, a veteran of the Korean War, was visibly shaken by what he reported seeing. He now resides in an assisted living facility and reportedly has dementia.</P>


    Ray Gricar: Declared legally dead in July, Gricar was the Centre County district attorney from 1985 to 2005, when he disappeared. He chose not to prosecute Sandusky in 1998 after allegations of inappropriate contact with young boys surfaced. The decision helped to end a police investigation into the report.</P>


    Wendell Courtney: The former general counsel for Penn State University is also the longtime lawyer for Sandusky's charity foundation, The Second Mile. He was working for both organizations when, according to Schultz, he reviewed the 1998 university police report about Sandusky's behavior with boys.</P>
    <HR>



    Timeline Of Events</P>


    1977: Jerry Sandusky establishes <FONT color=#3366cc>The Second Mile</FONT> in State College, Pa., "as a group foster home devoted to helping troubled boys," <FONT color=#3366cc>according to the grand jury's findings</FONT>. The program evolves into a statewide charity whose honorary board members include Paterno and other sports figures.</P>


    1993: Tim Curley becomes Penn State's athletic director. That same year, Gary Schultz is named the school's treasurer and senior vice president.</P>


    1994: A boy identified as Victim 7 in the grand jury report meets Sandusky through the Second Mile program. Now 26, Victim 7 says that after a couple of years in the program, he often spent Friday nights at Sandusky's house and attended football games with him the next day. He says Sandusky touched him in ways that made him uncomfortable, primarily during car rides and when the two showered after a workout.</P>


    1998: An 11-year-old boy returns home with wet hair after an outing with Sandusky. Victim 6 tells his mother he took a shower with Sandusky and that the coach hugged him several times. The boy's mother contacts university police, triggering an investigation.</P>


    On May 13 and May 19, Det. Ronald Shreffler records the boy's mother during a call with Sandusky. Court papers say Sandusky acknowledges that he showered with the boy, as well as with others. When the mother cuts off contact with Sandusky after a second call, he tells her, "I wish I were dead," according to court papers.</P>


    On June 1, Jerry Lauro, an investigator from the Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare, takes part in an interview of Sandusky by Shreffler. According to the grand jury report, Sandusky admits to hugging the boy in the shower, and says he will not shower with children again.</P>


    Shreffler speaks to another boy who reports similar treatment to that reported by Victim 6. But the investigation ends after District Attorney Ray Gricar decides the case warrants no criminal charges. Shreffler tells the grand jury that Thomas Harmon, who headed the campus police, told him to close the inquiry.</P>


    1999: Sandusky retires from Penn State's football program, but with an "emeritus" label that allows him continued access to campus facilities, including the locker room and an office in the Lasch Football Building. Schultz has testified that the timing of Sandusky's retirement was not related to the university police investigation a year earlier.</P>


    2000: Jim Calhoun, a janitor at the Lasch building, tells a co-worker and his supervisor that he saw Sandusky engaged in sexual activity with a boy in the assistant coaches' shower. The boy, referred to as Victim 8 in court papers, has never been identified.</P>


    Calhoun's colleague Ronald Petrosky, who reported seeing Sandusky's car in the parking lot later that night in the fall of 2000, says that members of the janitorial staff were concerned that they might lose their jobs if they spoke out about what had happened.</P>


    After Calhoun told his supervisor, Jay Witherite, what he had seen, Witherite told him whom he could report the incident to, if he chose to do so.</P>


    2002: A graduate assistant reports seeing Sandusky sexually assaulting a boy in the showers at Lasch Football Building on the Penn State campus, around 9:30 p.m. on Friday, March 1. The assault on the boy, who Kelly said "appeared to be about 10 years old," is reported to Paterno the next day. Paterno, in turn, passes the information to Curley one day later.</P>


    The graduate assistant, who has since been identified as current Penn State assistant coach Mike McQueary, meets with Curley and Schultz, but not Paterno, some 10 days later. According to McQueary, he told them that he had seen Sandusky having sex with a boy in the showers. No report is made to police or to any child protection agency a breach of state law, prosecutors say.</P>


    Two weeks later, Curley tells McQueary that Sandusky's keys to the locker room have been taken away and that the incident was reported to The Second Mile charity.</P>


    Sandusky is banned from bringing children onto the Penn State campus in a decision reviewed and approved by Spanier, the university president.</P>


    2009: The mother of the boy identified by court papers as Victim 1 calls a high school in Clinton County to report that her son was sexually abused by Sandusky. The school district bans Sandusky from any of its campuses, and the police are notified.</P>


    2010: In December, the graduate assistant who had reported the 2002 assault testifies before a grand jury investigating Sandusky, detailing what he saw and what he told Paterno, Schultz and Curley.</P>


    And in 2010 or 2011, Victim 7 tells the grand jury that prior to his testimony, he received voice mails from Sandusky, his wife and a friend of Sandusky's. Victim 7 says he did not return any of the calls.</P>


    2011: In his Jan. 12 grand jury testimony, Curley says the graduate assistant reported only "inappropriate," not "sexual" conduct, calling the conduct "horsing around."</P>


    Also testifying on Jan. 12, Schultz says he met with Curley and Paterno about the abuse allegations. But he tells the grand jury that he was unsure about the details of what had happened and that he thought Sandusky and the boy might have been wrestling when the inappropriate contact occurred.</P>


    Saturday, Nov. 5: The investigation into Sandusky, Curley and Schultz becomes public, with prosecutors accusing the former assistant coach of making inappropriate sexual advances or assaults on eight boys, from 1994 to 2009.</P>


    Sunday, Nov. 6: Curley and Schultz vacate their university posts following an emergency meeting with school officials.</P>


    Monday, Nov. 7: Curley and Schultz are arraigned on charges of making false statements to the grand jury and failing to report the possible abuse of a child.</P>


    Wednesday, Nov. 9: Paterno, coming under increasing pressure to resign in the wake of the Sandusky scandal, announces that he will retire at the end of the 2011 season, when his three-year contract expires. In a statement, Paterno said, "This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."</P>


    Sections of this timeline are based on events as described by <FONT color=#3366cc>the investigating grand jury's findings</FONT>.</P></DIV>
    <DIV id=storyspan03 class=storylocation>
    <DIV id=res142138524 class="bucketwrap listtext">
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    Former Penn State defensive coordinator Gerald "Jerry" Sandusky has been charged with sexually abusing eight boys following a grand jury investigation that also led to charges against two university officials. Athletic director Tim Curley and a vice president, Gary Schultz, are accused of perjury and failing to report suspected child abuse. Both have stepped down from their posts.</P>


    The scandal has shocked the Penn State community, where legendary head football coach Joe Paterno has long been credited for running a successful by-the-rules program. Pennsylvania Attorney General Linda Kelly says the investigation is ongoing but that Paterno is "not regarded as a target." However, pressure is mounting for the coach to resign; he has announced that he will retire at the end of the 2011 season.</P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV id=res142139951 class="bucketwrap listtext">
    <DIV class=bucket>
    <UL class=edTag>
    <LI class=tab-open jQuery162020348447415275034="1">Key Figures</LI>
    <LI jQuery162020348447415275034="2">Timeline Of Events</LI>[/list]</DIV></DIV>
    <DIV id=res142130424 class="bucketwrap list">
    <H3 class=hed>Key Figures</H3>
    <UL>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142130482 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Jerry Sandusky</H3>
    <DIV id=res142134826 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=rightsnotice>AP</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    The former defensive coordinator was charged with sexually abusing eight boys over a 15-year period. Sandusky, 67, maintains he is innocent. He played football at Penn State and was a coach there for 32 years 23 of them as the team's defensive coordinator. He and his wife, Dottie, raised six adopted children.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142131382 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Tim Curley</H3>
    <DIV id=res142134569 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=credit>Patrick Smith</SPAN>/<SPAN class=rightsnotice>Getty Images</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    The Penn State athletic director, 57, denies being told of sexual misconduct by Sandusky in 2002 but is accused of covering up allegations tied to the scandal. He was named athletic director on Dec. 30, 1993. Curley went on administrative leave the day before his Nov. 7 arraignment.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142131667 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Gary Schultz</H3>
    <DIV id=res142134841 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=credit>Patrick Smith</SPAN>/<SPAN class=rightsnotice>Getty Images</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    As the senior vice president for finance and business which gives him oversight of university police Schultz, 62, has been charged with covering up abuse allegations. He served as Penn State's senior vice president and treasurer from 1993 to 2009, when he retired. Schultz returned to the same job in 2011, on a temporary basis. In early 2010, the university named a campus child care center after Schultz, who retired again on Nov. 6.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142131834 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Joe Paterno</H3>
    <DIV id=res142131996 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=credit>Justin K. Aller</SPAN>/<SPAN class=rightsnotice>Getty Images</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    "Joe Pa," 84, has been an assistant or head coach at Penn State University since 1950. Coming under increasing pressure to resign in the wake of the scandal, he plans to retire at the end of the 2011 season. In a statement, Paterno said, "This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Law enforcement officials say he is not a target in their investigation. Paterno has five children, all of whom attended Penn State.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142132019 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Graham Spanier</H3>
    <DIV id=res142132800 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=credit>Gene J. Puskar</SPAN>/<SPAN class=rightsnotice>AP</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    Spanier, 63, became the university's president in 1995, after serving at universities in Oregon, Nebraska, and New York. A faculty and staff member at Penn State from 1973 to 1982, Spanier's academic background is in sociology and family counseling.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142132327 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Mike McQueary</H3>
    <DIV id=res142134813 class="bucketwrap photo138">
    <DIV class=captionwrap><SPAN class=creditwrap><SPAN class=credit>Chris Gardner</SPAN>/<SPAN class=rightsnotice>Getty Images</SPAN></SPAN>


    </P></DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    In 2002, the then-graduate assistant told Paterno that he had witnessed Sandusky abusing a boy in a Penn State locker room shower. Paterno informed Curley, who later met with the graduate assistant and Schultz. McQueary, who is now an assistant coach at Penn State, reiterated his statement to the grand jury.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>
    <LI>
    <DIV id=res142132335 class="bucket listitem simplelistitem">
    <H3>Jim Calhoun</H3>
    <DIV class=bucketblock>


    A temporary worker whose job as a janitor at Penn State lasted only eight months, Calhoun told co-workers and a supervisor in 2000 that he witnessed Sandusky engaging in sexual activity with a boy in a campus locker-room shower. Several staff members later said that Calhoun, a veteran of the Korean War, was visibly shaken by what he reported seeing. He now resides in an assisted living facility and reportedly has dementia.</P></DIV></DIV></LI>[/list]</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
    Get well soon 80.

  8. #122188
    Hall of Famer MattMeyerBud's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    Jerry Sandusky: The former defensive coordinator was
    charged with sexually abusing eight boys over a 15-year period.
    Sandusky, 67, maintains he is innocent. He played football at Penn
    State and was a coach there for 32 years 23 of them as the team's
    defensive coordinator. He and his wife, Dottie, <font size="6">raised six adopted
    children.</font>



    jesus god, i dont even want to think about it
    Fear the name, appreciate the game

  9. #122189
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!

    LANDO

    [quote user="Morehead State"]I completely agree. Joe Pa had a larger obligation. And I don't care if he's a mascot or not.[/quote]

    Do you agree with that.

    do you think Joe Pa who heard the story from the witness, had a larger obligation to make sure this guy got what he deserved then the witness himself?

    (morally?)


  10. #122190
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Re: THEE GAME IS vs THE BUFFALO BILLS ON OCT 16th!



    [quote user="DavenIII"][quote user="bigblue4417"]
    Holy **** Matt. No one is arguing that.
    [/quote]

    you are incorrect that is EXACTLY what people are arguing, Morehead in particular is arguing that Joe Pa. bares a larger portion of the blame/responsibility then the actual witness...

    and that's what me and Matt are arguing against....actually witnessing the event puts more of the responsibility on you then the guy you tell the story too....that is all me and Matt are saying.

    we recognize that Joe Pa...didn't go far enough...we aren't arguing against that.
    [/quote]</P>


    I'm not arguing that at all. I'm arguing that Joe Pa had a far greater responsibility that he took on by meerly passing it on to the AD, and then working alongside the guy after that.</P>


    I don't give 2 ****s about what an unknown temp. worker does.</P>
    Get well soon 80.

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