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Thread: Great breakdown of the Giants needs and mistakes.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CDN_G-FAN View Post
    i know. i was referring to older drafts (3 years +) so we have a better idea of what the players have become.
    Two years ago we took JPP over Mike Iupati in the first round. While that worked out for us, at the time Iupati was considered an NFL ready offensive lineman (and a need for us) and JPP a project (due to his short span of playing football and small school background).

    In the same draft we took Marvin Austin (DT) in the second round over Sean Lee (ILB). Austin had more measurables but Lee had a better pedigree and resume (and we needed a LB desperately that year ... we took Dillard in the 4th instead who was cut the following year).

    With the rare exception of Beatty and Sintim (both second rounders in the same draft), Reese has treated the offensive line and linebackers as positions of lesser draft priority that he's thrown a lot of lower drafted players / FAs at to see what stuck. We've had one major FA signing to each under Reese (Boley and Baas). The strategy seems to be to see who works out from the rank and file and then bolster via FA (not agreeing or disagreeing with the strategy ... just illustrating my conclusions).

    P.S. - These just came to mind recently ... I'd have to do some homework to find older instances but I'm sure they're there.

  2. #12
    All-Pro CDN_G-FAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    Two years ago we took JPP over Mike Iupati in the first round. While that worked out for us, at the time Iupati was considered an NFL ready offensive lineman (and a need for us) and JPP a project (due to his short span of playing football and small school background).

    In the same draft we took Marvin Austin (DT) in the second round over Sean Lee (ILB). Austin had more measurables but Lee had a better pedigree and resume (and we needed a LB desperately that year ... we took Dillard in the 4th instead who was cut the following year).

    With the rare exception of Beatty and Sintim (both second rounders in the same draft), Reese has treated the offensive line and linebackers as positions of lesser draft priority that he's thrown a lot of lower drafted players / FAs at to see what stuck. We've had one major FA signing to each under Reese (Boley and Baas). The strategy seems to be to see who works out from the rank and file and then bolster via FA (not agreeing or disagreeing with the strategy ... just illustrating my conclusions).

    P.S. - These just came to mind recently ... I'd have to do some homework to find older instances but I'm sure they're there.
    thanks. i'd call passing on sean lee for Austin an obvious miss. there's no way you could say the same thing about JPP and Iupati.

    i still question whether they're lesser priorities, without more evidence. he definitely has a preference for high skill early, but i don't know if that is just best player available or whether he's purposefully passing on obvious solutions at LBer and OL because he doesn't see the value of picking those positions early.

    to me, JPP would support the best player available strategy, albeit he was thought of as very raw as you said. i think most fans are willing to reach for players of need in the early rounds, and Reese probably would rather fill his team with the most skill/talent as possible and deal with overlaps as opposed to looking back on picks of need and having more busts he has to try and explain away with "well we needed x so we took him".

    our nascar thing i don't think was a conscience decision, but was the result of drafting based on BPA and ending up with a bunch of great DEs. that's a better problem to have than a bunch of potentially unusable players because you turned a blind eye to talent and made decisions based primarily on your next 16 games.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDN_G-FAN View Post
    thanks. i'd call passing on sean lee for Austin an obvious miss. there's no way you could say the same thing about JPP and Iupati.

    i still question whether they're lesser priorities, without more evidence. he definitely has a preference for high skill early, but i don't know if that is just best player available or whether he's purposefully passing on obvious solutions at LBer and OL because he doesn't see the value of picking those positions early.

    to me, JPP would support the best player available strategy, albeit he was thought of as very raw as you said. i think most fans are willing to reach for players of need in the early rounds, and Reese probably would rather fill his team with the most skill/talent as possible and deal with overlaps as opposed to looking back on picks of need and having more busts he has to try and explain away with "well we needed x so we took him".

    our nascar thing i don't think was a conscience decision, but was the result of drafting based on BPA and ending up with a bunch of great DEs. that's a better problem to have than a bunch of potentially unusable players because you turned a blind eye to talent and made decisions based primarily on your next 16 games.
    Very well put! After all this talk i wish the draft was tomorrow LOL. Can't wait for draft to begin, im so curious what Reese and company will do, what we as fans want is different but what the Giants will actually is another thing. In Reese i trust

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CDN_G-FAN View Post
    thanks. i'd call passing on sean lee for Austin an obvious miss. there's no way you could say the same thing about JPP and Iupati.
    Well all of this is hindsight. JPP was the sexier and more aggressive pick ... Iupati was the safer pick. Obviously if JPP didn't work out (or if he goes south now as well as our offensive line) then we'd look back and say "wow, that was a miss". You can also make the argument (and fairly valid one) that the difference between a late first round OG and a late fourth round OG isn't all that great (while the same can't be said for DEs since they're so coveted).

    The Austin pick was the exact same deal. A bonafide top 10 draft prospect who slipped due to being kicked out of school but with immense measurables and resume. He took the gamble but this time it hasn't paid off (yet). Then again, for as good as Sean Lee is (and I wanted him SOOOOO badly) he can't seem to stay on the field 100% either.

    So my love of typing brings us to this ... Everything is amazingly clear in the rear view mirror.

    i still question whether they're lesser priorities, without more evidence. he definitely has a preference for high skill early, but i don't know if that is just best player available or whether he's purposefully passing on obvious solutions at LBer and OL because he doesn't see the value of picking those positions early.
    I bet he had this exact conversation in his own head and since it wasn't obvious, he went with what he thought best ("him" being the FO in general).

    to me, JPP would support the best player available strategy, albeit he was thought of as very raw as you said. i think most fans are willing to reach for players of need in the early rounds, and Reese probably would rather fill his team with the most skill/talent as possible and deal with overlaps as opposed to looking back on picks of need and having more busts he has to try and explain away with "well we needed x so we took him".
    JPP was a wish and a prayer (not to mention 14 back flips in a row by a DE prospect). Tons of physical measurables but not off the charts. Conversely, an OG at that spot who might be "good" but not considered a blue chipper just wasn't as sexy. The JPP pick definitely wasn't BPA though (at least by any measurable other than back flips).

    our nascar thing i don't think was a conscience decision, but was the result of drafting based on BPA and ending up with a bunch of great DEs. that's a better problem to have than a bunch of potentially unusable players because you turned a blind eye to talent and made decisions based primarily on your next 16 games.
    Spags started the Nascar package in 2007 with Osi, Tuck and Strahan (remember Tuck playing DT?). It was a defensive wrinkle that lasted for a few games and worked especially well against teams who couldn't run the ball well. It's not a defensive scheme (although we've used it as such over the past 3 years to our regret).

    The idea was (and still is) to put the best players on the field (that's why Kiwi is playing LBer). Unfortunately, the "best players" aren't necessarily the best at every position. There's a reason why DTs are usually 300lbs+ and SAM backers aren't. This is one philosophy I don't agree with (sort of like Andy Reid promoting an offensive line coach to Defensive Coordinator /facepalm).

  5. #15
    Veteran JJC7301's Avatar
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    JR's done a great job in the early rounds which is important because that's where you have the best chance of getting the most talent. So, at least he's not blowing $$$ on bad picks in rounds 1 - 3.

    His later rounds, 4 - 7, leave something to be desired. Except for 2007 (and to early to fully judge the 2011 draft), JR's picked some real whoppers that I think could have been signed as UDFA's instead of using actual picks on.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    This past draft, we took David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn. Reese even admitted that Cordy Glenn was rated higher.
    Link?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kruunch View Post
    Eli was the least sacked QB in the league this year.
    Sacks do not equal Pressures. The OLine played poorly in those ugly losses we had.

    Eli gets rid of the ball to avoid sacks and does all kinds of pre-snap sorcery to get the most out of the OLine and RB's in pass protection....that doesn't mean the OLine played consistently well this year.

  8. #18
    Veteran NYGisBallin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ny06 View Post
    Jerry Resse's formula in the early rounds has been a staple mark on our team, pass rushers, play makers at the wr position. Now it's time to beef up the o-line, this offense has the weapons, it just needs the big guys to pave the way.
    I agree that the O-Line could use a little fine tuning... But was Eli not the least sacked QB in the league this season? Had to be around there at least... The O-Line didnt play terrible.. I do however agree it could be time to address it sooner rather than later either FA or Draft.


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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by BeatYale View Post
    Sacks do not equal Pressures. The OLine played poorly in those ugly losses we had.

    Eli gets rid of the ball to avoid sacks and does all kinds of pre-snap sorcery to get the most out of the OLine and RB's in pass protection....that doesn't mean the OLine played consistently well this year.
    No, that's pretty much exactly what it means. Pressures don't mean anything to me. A QB is pressured on every play where the ball is hiked to him.

    The oline, by and large, played fine. Having said that, it was a piece meal line. Locklear is a stop gap measure, not the future. DD is pretty much at the end of his rope. Beatty is an FA this off season. Accordingly the oline is something we have to look at this year (one would think).

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TCHOF View Post
    Link?
    Can't find it ... basically (off of memory at the draft) Reese said that Cordy Glenn and David Wilson were so close, that he went with the position of most need (ironic considering OL was considered more in need than a RB by pretty much everybody).

    When asked about Doug Martin, Reese said he had Wilson rated higher and as the highest rated RB where we picked. Somehow that got condensed to "highest rated player". But I'll keep digging for it.

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