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Thread: 168 REC, 2,628 yards, 15.6 YPC, 19 TD

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by gumby74 View Post
    I'm curious. Do you see Wes Welker as a special, special receiver as well? His productivity is through the roof as well. Yet, the Patriots still hesitate to re-sign him to a more lucrative contract.

    There's a big difference between Cruz and most of the WRs listed. The (most) ones listed are big, strong, physical WRs that can make the tough catch in traffic. They are far less reliant on "getting separation" than Cruz is. Honestly, I don't think Cruz is that kind of WR that warrants top dollar. His skillset is more easily replaced than most of the WRs listed.

    Don't get me wrong. I love him to death. But for top dollar (assuming he asks that much), I'd take many other WRs in the league over him. Numbers don't lie. He definitely no one year wonder. But he lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract.
    theres a big difference with cruz and welker tho. Cruz is a legitimate downfield threat who can make contested jump ball catches...maybe welker can do those things too but for whatever reason is never used that way.
    Welker is pretty much purely a slot wr. cruz proved hes dangerous on the perimeter as well as slot...

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajoe View Post
    Agreed, but is the improvement age related or rather because the WR develops chemistry with the QB over time and knows the playbook better and better?I don't think Cruz's stats first two years are anything to scoff at. What probably helped him out the most was he was unheralded coming out of college and I'm sure teams didn't forge a strong game plan based on his skills.
    Exactly. Not only is he older and more developed physically, he also had an extra year learning the playbook. The stats being compared are cruz's 2nd and 3rd year in the league to everyone else's 1st and 2nd years. Obviously what he has done is impressive, but it is not a fair comparison .

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by gmen46 View Post
    "Lacks the physicality that warrants the big contract" is a bit silly.

    Can he catch the ball? Can he run? Can he catch and run? Can he score? Is he a reliable target? These are aspects that matter, and Cruz conforms to them in a big way.

    For example, I'm not saying he's yet at the level of Roddy White--although Cruz's 2 year numbers are actually a little better than White's, the past 2 years--but Cruz is the same size as White. Is White not worth "the big contract"?
    To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

    I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

    What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by NYG4lifeNYK View Post
    Whose numbers are those you ask?

    Victor Cruz in two years.


    Comparison?



    Nicks 2 Years:

    126 REC, 1,842 yards, 17 TD

    Dez 2 years:

    110 REC, 1,489 yards, 15 TD



    First Three Years:


    Hakeem Nicks:

    202 REC, 3,034 yards, 15.3 YPC, 24 TD

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Dez Bryant:

    200 catches, 2871 yards, 14.4 ypc, 27 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Brandon Marshall:

    226 catches, 2899 yards, 12.8 ypc, 15 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Calvin Johnson:

    193 catches, 3071 yards, 15.9 ypc, 21 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Andre Johnson:


    208 catches, 2806 yards, 13.4 ypc, 12 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Larry Fitzgerald:

    230 catches, 3135 yards, 13.6 ypc, 24 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Demaryius Thomas:


    148 catches, 2268 yards, 15.3 ypc, 16 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Michael Irvin:

    78 catches, 1445 yards, 18.5 ypc, 12 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Cris Carter:


    111 catches, 1779 yards, 16.0 ypc, 20 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Jerry Rice:


    200 catches, 3575 yards, 17.8 ypc, 40 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Terrell Owens:

    162 catches, 2553 yards, 15.7 ypc, 26 TDs

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Randy Moss:

    226 catches, 4163 yards, 18.4 ypc, 43 TDs


    ----------------------------------------------------------



    Nicks when healthy is a top 5 receiver but Cruz is no drop off. Have to lock both of them up without question. No ifs ands or buts about it. Cruz is a special special receiver. If we let him get away I would cry.


    His first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding

    I see what you're trying to say, but this way of looking at it is flawed. If you want to compare who is the best right now, you have to compare nick's first 3 years with the last 3 years of all of those current players. by comparing nicks first 3 years to Brandon Marshall first 3 years you are comparing how nicks is now to how Marshall started out 6 years ago. That doesn't tell you who is better right "now". it just tells you who had the better start.


    Here is an example of this same logic used to say cam newton is a top 5 QB right "now"

    first 2 years

    cam - 7920 yards - 40 touchdowns 29 ints


    eli - 4805 yards 30 touchdowns - 26 ints


    brees - 5392 yards 28 touchdowns - 31 ints


    rodgers- 8472 yards 58 touchdowns - 20 ints


    peyton - 7874 yards 52 touchdowns - 43 ints


    tom brady- 6608 yards 46 touchdowns - 26 ints

    CAM'S first two years he put up jaw dropping numbers..... just outstanding

    Rodgers doesn't really count since he waited on the bench for about 3 years. The only person that played better than cam in their first 2 years is Brady. That doesn't mean cam right now is a top 5 qb.


    Brandon Marshall
    Calvin Johnson
    Andre Johnson
    Larry fritz
    AJ green


    are all naturally better than nicks when healthy. And i used the word naturally because those guys can play behind any QB and still be productive. In my opinion there are a few others who are better but they are too underrated so I'll leave them out for now
    Last edited by Marvelousmik; 01-24-2013 at 11:06 PM.
    Don't take it personal, we're just debating.

    ~Big Mike~


  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by gumby74 View Post
    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by RoanokeFan View Post
    His numbers will determine his price tag. In two years he has been very impressive, despite his drops. I don't know what physicality has to do with his numbers.
    Cruz deserves a big pay day. That's for certain. I just don't know if he's worth top dollar. For 6-7 million I'd definitely do it. Any more then that, I'd be luke warm.

    But I think physicality (or some other extremely hard to find attribute) does have to do with how much people get paid. If you look at the highest paid WRs at the time of the contracts, most of them fit the mold of "big, fast, physical" not "quick and shifty". I bring up Wes Welker. From a production point of view, he deserves top dollar too. He's being playing at a high level for a long time now. But I'll be surprised if he gets that. However, i wouldn't be surprised if say Dez Bryant has one break out year, and he ends up with a top dollar contract.

    I'm just guessing and this may be just me, but if I were in the front office, I'd think "What is the type of WR i want to get the biggest bang for my buck for". Do I want a guy that needs separation (already there)? Or a guy that can create his own separation?

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Flip Empty View Post
    I'm not saying he can't do it at all. He's obviously shown he can on occasion as evidenced in the youtube clip and him fighting through 2-3 eagles for the touchdown. But it's not something he can do all the time. He's just not that kind of WR.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by gumby74 View Post
    To be honest, I've seen only a little bit of Roddy White. So I can't really comment.

    The reason why I value physicality is this. When you're physical, you can make catches in traffic. You don't need to be 100% open to make the grab. You don't need as much separation. In short, it lessens that pressure on the QB by being that bailout guy. No time? Chuck it up there and see what happens! Calvin Johnson will get it. It's much harder finding this kind of physicality than it is the other stuff. How many times have we heard here on the boards, "Our WRs get no separation". If you have physical WRs, separation isn't as big a deal. I also want a guy that can go across the middle, get blown up, and still make the grab.

    I'm not saying Cruz isn't a top WR. He is. And he deserves good money. It's just that if I need to pay top tier money for him, I'd rather get someone else. Cruz's skill set imo is far more replaceable than say Calvin Johnson or even Hakeem Nicks.

    What makes this even more difficult is that Cruz and Nicks contracts are up at the same time. So it's not like we can stagger their contracts. If I had only on e contract to give, it would go to Nicks - assuming he's healthy.
    cruz has that physicality tho, its just kind of deceptive. he knows how to get dbs on their heels and then he either shakes them or gets on top of them and stems the route...he also makes plenty of catches in traffic despite this latest murmuring of him having a big problem with drops...dont get me wrong hes not nicks physical but cruz def does have that element to his game.

  9. #59
    I agree with Gumby, I don't think Cruz has the physical tools to be a top 5 WR in the NFL, you look at the greats like Moss, Fitzgerald, Rice, they were all tough physical BIG wr's. Even the top WR's now, Marshall, Johnson, Johnson, White, Green, Nicks all tough big psychical receivers. While Cruz is an excellent slot receiver that benefits from having a top 5 and probably most physical receiver in the NFL when healthy on his team. He showed that he can't be an elite top 5 receiver alone, his physical set shows he can't "do it all". He is a niche receiver who is the best at what he does, and in a patriots like system can flourish and he post great numbers when there's somebody else to take all the attention off him and he can slip and slide like he did in year 1. He is not a do it all receiver like the elites in the NFL right now though.

  10. #60
    Some guys he breaks out and does very good, the 640 yards in 5 games shows that, but he can not do it consistently.

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