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  1. #111
    Moderator RoanokeFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
    Taking a paycut is not the same thing as a restructure. Restructures just move the money around.

    Eli did not get additional money. The overall numbers stayed exactly the same. He just converted base to a bonus. Which prorates the money in terms of the cap.

    And you keep saying that the overall money is meaningless. When it's clearly not.

    And as for teams having all the power when the guaranteed money runs out. Well sort of. It depends on the structure. Having a large signing bonus would mean the team is still on the hook in regards to the salary cap and cutting the player would result in a worse situation. Like the jets with Sanchez. His guaranteed money is gone but it would cost them far more cap dollars to release him than keep him.

    In any case the total dollar amount of a contract is extremely important.

    Cruz is not going to sign a contract that pays roughly half of what Brown got just because he had $10 more guaranteed.
    I have a feeling Reese is going to look for some pay cutting this year.
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  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
    I'm not sure I follow. Who is made to look silly there and why?
    If Reese matches numbers he could have just offered Cruz, wouldn't that make him look silly? That would seem to mean Reese didn't understand Cruz's fair market value.
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  3. #113
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
    Taking a paycut is not the same thing as a restructure. Restructures just move the money around.

    Eli did not get additional money. The overall numbers stayed exactly the same. He just converted base to a bonus. Which prorates the money in terms of the cap.

    And you keep saying that the overall money is meaningless. When it's clearly not.

    And as for teams having all the power when the guaranteed money runs out. Well sort of. It depends on the structure. Having a large signing bonus would mean the team is still on the hook in regards to the salary cap and cutting the player would result in a worse situation. Like the jets with Sanchez. His guaranteed money is gone but it would cost them far more cap dollars to release him than keep him.

    In any case the total dollar amount of a contract is extremely important.

    Cruz is not going to sign a contract that pays roughly half of what Brown got just because he had $10 more guaranteed.
    Well then let me be clear regarding my earlier statement.
    Most long term contracts are not played out by the player. They are usually restructured, negotiated downward, or the player is released.
    Stop with the semantics. Its a BS argument.
    Another example is Corey Webster. The Giants may very well ask (demand really) that he take a pay cut this year or be released.
    It happens all the time in the NFL.

    The overall value of the contract is practically meaningless. Is that better.
    Get well soon 80.

  4. #114
    All-Pro slipknottin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Well then let me be clear regarding my earlier statement.
    Most long term contracts are not played out by the player. They are usually restructured, negotiated downward, or the player is released.
    Stop with the semantics. Its a BS argument.
    Another example is Corey Webster. The Giants may very well ask (demand really) that he take a pay cut this year or be released.
    It happens all the time in the NFL.

    The overall value of the contract is practically meaningless. Is that better.
    And you are still incredibly wrong.

    You want to use Webster as why the overall value means nothing? Ok let's go ahead

    Webster signed a 6 year 43.5 million deal with $20 guaranteed.

    So you are saying the $20 million is the only important part and the other $23 million is meaningless because Webster could be released this year?

    Well lets see how much Webster has made so far.

    $5 mil signing bonus
    $3.6 mil 2010 signing bonus
    $4 mil 2011 roster bonus

    And then his base salaries in previous years which he has already been paid.
    2008 - $520k
    2009 - 5.4 mil
    2010 - 2.75 mil
    2011 - 5 mil
    2012 - 6.5 mil

    Add all that up and Webster has so far made 32.7 million. $12 million dollars that according to you is "meaningless"

    So yes, if he got released this year he would not make that 43 million total number. But to suggest that the other 12 million he has made above the guaranteed number is meaningless is insanity.


    That you are still claiming restructures reduce what a player earns just boggles my mind. I have explained it already. Restructures take a future base salty and convert it to a signing bonus that the player receives when he agrees to the deal.

    And it's not semantics at all. The difference with saying a player is unlikely to receive the total value of a contract is absolutely true. Saying the total value is therefore practically meaningless is absolutely wrong.
    Last edited by slipknottin; 01-31-2013 at 02:43 PM.

  5. #115
    MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by slipknottin View Post
    And you are still incredibly wrong.

    You want to use Webster as why the overall value means nothing? Ok let's go ahead

    Webster signed a 6 year 43.5 million deal with $20 guaranteed.

    So you are saying the $20 million is the only important part and the other $23 million is meaningless because Webster could be released this year?

    Well lets see how much Webster has made so far.

    $5 mil signing bonus
    $3.6 mil 2010 signing bonus
    $4 mil 2011 roster bonus

    And then his base salaries in previous years which he has already been paid.
    2008 - $520k
    2009 - 5.4 mil
    2010 - 2.75 mil
    2011 - 5 mil
    2012 - 6.5 mil

    Add all that up and Webster has so far made 32.7 million. $12 million dollars that according to you is "meaningless"

    So yes, if he got released this year he would not make that 43 million total number. But to suggest that the other 12 million he has made above the guaranteed number is meaningless is insanity.
    But it has been completely up to the discretion of the team. The Giants could have voided all of that contract at any time outside the guarantee. The team CHOSE to continue paying Webby and may or may not this season.

    How much of that $100MM did Albert Haynesworth get? Not much. Because the $100MMM figure was MEANINGLESS.
    Aside the guarantee, a team can void any deal for any reason. Thats why it means next to nothing. If a player in on the last year and is due $10MM. the team can pay it if they chose or tell the player to pound sand. That $10MM is practically MEANINGLESS. The only significance is that the team has a guaranteed option to pay a player that much if they chose.

    How much of Nate Clements contract did the Niners pay?.... Answer: very little.
    There are countless examples.
    Last edited by Morehead State; 01-31-2013 at 02:49 PM.
    Get well soon 80.

  7. #117
    Moderator RoanokeFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.
    Maybe 5/$35M, $20M, guaranteed?
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1








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  8. #118
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    MS suggested a 5 year/$28 million contract with 12 guaranteed, correct? I just can't fathom Cruz and his agent being happy with that meager base salary in the later years of the contract while other dudes are making twice as much over him per year.
    It depends on how its structured. If its balanced for the 5 years I can see it. If the load it in the back end, it would be a bad deal.
    You can call it $40MM if you want. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that he gets a good guaranteed amount, and he gets his $6 or $7 MM per year.
    Get well soon 80.

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    It depends on how its structured. If its balanced for the 5 years I can see it. If the load it in the back end, it would be a bad deal.
    You can call it $40MM if you want. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that he gets a good guaranteed amount, and he gets his $6 or $7 MM per year.
    That still seems way too low for the current market. Roddy White signed a 6 year/$48 million contract back in 2009 while you have Anquan Boldin on a 4 year/$28 million contract back in 2010 when the Cards traded him to the Ravens. Something around $9 to $11mil a year seems to be reasonable considering his youth and on a much smaller note, his marketability.

  10. #120
    Moderator RoanokeFan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheEnigma View Post
    That still seems way too low for the current market. Roddy White signed a 6 year/$48 million contract back in 2009 while you have Anquan Boldin on a 4 year/$28 million contract back in 2010 when the Cards traded him to the Ravens. Something around $9 to $11mil a year seems to be reasonable considering his youth and on a much smaller note, his marketability.
    I wouldn't downplay his "marketability." He is playing in the largest media market in the world and is already taking advantage of that exposure. He also is in the clothing business, which he started before becoming the impact player he has become. It could well be he just wants a respectable, fair offer to stay here.
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” MB Rule # 1








    # 80

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