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  1. #291
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    Whenever Herm Edwards comes on ESPN my IQ loses 10 Points...........its contagious.......you have to retune your ears and mind to even get down on his level

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by giantsfan420 View Post
    eli flat outplayed rodgers. he made tougher throws and more accurate throws. point blank. rodgers overthrew or missed his wrs too it wasnt just drops. and eli was throwing dimes on 3rd and 10s virtually the entire 1rst half and 4th quarter...eli made rodgers his ***** that playoff game imo
    +1

  3. #293
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    You realize that QB's don't actually play against eachother right?

  4. #294
    So who else is in the ESPN Hall of Fame if expert analysts? Trent Dilfer, Hassleback (the backup who never played), that running back for the Steelers whose name I can never remember (wide knot in the tie), Mangenius, yes, Herm's in stellar company....

  5. #295
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    How about Teddy Bruschi.....they said he had a hole in his heart and forgot to mention the hole in his head

  6. #296
    All-Pro B&RWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen46 View Post
    You can disagree with my logic as being irrelevant to your opinion on the matter, but you have no case to support your claim that my logic is "flawed". To do so reveals your misunderstanding of the definition of logic.

    Clearly, you did not read all--or failed to understand--my points. That's understandable, since I sometimes get carried away in attempts to support my point and become too long-winded, as I did here.

    But if you're going to respond--and dismiss the legitimacy of my argument ("huge flaw" in my logic)--please have the courtesy to read what I say.

    I did not say--at all-- SB victories alone is the best measure of a QBs ability. What I did say (and stand by) is that the measure of a QBs success to owners, GMs, coaches, team players, and most fans is measured in terms of the number of championship victories, championship appearances, post season appearances and wins, in addition to number of regular season wins over the course of said QB's career.

    Stats are fun to follow, sure. But how many QB contracts you think are weighted most heavily based upon total yards for a given season, or his ranking in passing yards a particular season among all Qbs?

    Just 1 case in point for 2012--Matt Stafford had the second most yards this season--2nd to Brees, of course--yet his team not only failed to make the post season like the Giants, he had 6 fewer TDs, 2 more INTs, 1 fewer big plays (40+ yards) with MEGATRON as his big play guy, and 7.7 lower in QB rating than Eli. According to some posters here already, that yardage total puts him as #2 QB for 2012, and "obviously" had a better year than Eli. Seriously?

    All things being equal for him statistically this past season, with Joe Flacco's contract being up for renewal this winter, do you honestly believe Flacco would have received the same new contract he is guaranteed to sign after his Ravens won SB XLVII? Hell, before this past season began, there were rumblings the Ravens were thinking of looking for their next QB, ready to move on from Flacco.

    I already acknowledged the team effort required in order to win championships--for all team wins, in fact, so to bring that up as a rebuttal is pointless and does not make your argument.

    You mention Ben R,, Jim McMahon in your argument here? How many Super Bowl MVPs did they win again? (There admittedly is an argument made by some these days that the SB MVP is rather an arbitrary vote by selected writers, but then, so are all season MVP selections. Are they all suspect? Even so, within that context, the fact that there have been only 5 QBs during the 47 years of the SB era--including Eli--and that of those other 4, 3 are in the HOF and the other is guaranteed to make first ballot HOF has significance in the debate.

    In one post you admit that Eli's clutch performance over his career is "elite" caliber. But then you dismiss it as being a serious factor in judging his career. That's nonsensical. One of the largest factors used by all in judging Montana and Brady careers as top2 or 3, for instance, is their abilities to perform at their greatest in clutch situations. Eli, however, doesn't deserve much if any credit for his proven clutch abilities?

    I have no desire to make, or insist upon, any claim that Eli is "elite". I, like some others on this board, acknowledge the term is overused, misapplied, misunderstood, and therefore has little real meaning in evaluating a QB's talent.

    My point is that there are several aspects of a professional QB's overall career performance and team leadership that NFL decision makers--owners, front office personnel, coaches--as well as a given team's fan base, value the most. And the stats that most participating in this debate seem to favor when comparing current QBs are mostly of secondary importance to the wins and championships that a particular QB brings to the team. Their only importance is in their respective necessity for a team's success any given season.

    I say forget the whole "who's an elite QB" thing. More to the point--if ranking Eli within the context of currently active QBs is important--the question to ask, (and is often asked--where does Eli rank at this point in his career? I'd say the argument is very strong for his ranking in the top 5 active QBs. To rank any 1st or 2nd year QB in that group, as some do, is absurd.
    Your tone is really condescending. I'll take it with a grain of salt, no worries. As for my misunderstanding of logic you may want to refresh your memory of the actual definition of the word. Another helpful hint is that words have 1, 2, and 3 definitions for the same word. Now your flawed logic was very relevant to the point I was making. Maybe you forgot what you posted, so I'll quote you to help you out.

    "Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories.After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

    Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans."


    No knowledgeable sports pundit or color analyst believes that SB victories is the ultimate judge of performance of a QB. You clearly are a smart guy but you lack football savvy, and I am Black Madden (Having fun now, not serious). SB victories are the ultimate prize but in no way do they determine greatness. Performance determines greatness for any position far better than SB victories, even QB, now because of the importance of the QB position performance usually has a strong correlation with winning and losing. Yet there are QBs that didn't win SBs that were great. And there are SB winning QB's that aren't great. The Redskins won 3 SBs with good/mediocre but not great QBs; 2012 Ravens are a prime example as were the 2000 Ravens that greatness at QB is unnecessary for a SB victory; the Giants first 2 SBs were won with good but not great QB play.

    I describe Eli's clutch factor as his most outstanding quality. The Giants performance has mirrored his play in their inconsistency so we've had 2 seasons out of the past 5 years where he had the opportunity to prove his clutch factor and the other 3 season in those 5 years we've missed the playoffs entirely. In our most pressure filled moments during playoff runs when the drama is at it's highest he has come through. Looking at his career in its entirety its been very inconsistent and filled with spotty play, save 2011.

    Elite is a word with a legitimate place and makes good convo during the offseason. I don't know how anybody could look at Eli's career and say his play is on par with AR, Brady. His inconsistency takes him out of that category.

    I have Eli ranked fifth among active QBs but there is a considerable gap between Eli and #4.

  7. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by BParcells777 View Post
    How about Teddy Bruschi.....they said he had a hole in his heart and forgot to mention the hole in his head
    Bruschi is usually fair to the Giants. Herm Edwards sounds like Charlie Browns teacher's to me most of the time.

  8. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudyy View Post
    Also, how are regular season wins a QB accomplishment but when it comes to the SB it turns into a team game? Aren't they always team wins?
    I've been reading this thread. Where did anyone make this double standard? Wins are a team achievement.

  9. #299
    All-Pro gmen46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B&RWarrior View Post
    Your tone is really condescending. I'll take it with a grain of salt, no worries. As for my misunderstanding of logic you may want to refresh your memory of the actual definition of the word. Another helpful hint is that words have 1, 2, and 3 definitions for the same word. Now your flawed logic was very relevant to the point I was making. Maybe you forgot what you posted, so I'll quote you to help you out.

    "Because what is undeniably the single most important stat attached to a QB in the NFL is the number of Super Bowl victories.After that, the next important stat is the number of Super Bowl appearances, followed by number of post season and post season game appearances, followed by number of post season wins. After that the most important stats are number of games won during his career.

    Only after these stats do QB numbers like TDs, total yards, ave per attempts,, comp %, interceptions, etc, etc.have any significant meaning to team owners, front office, coaches. and to most of a team's fans."


    No knowledgeable sports pundit or color analyst believes that SB victories is the ultimate judge of performance of a QB. You clearly are a smart guy but you lack football savvy, and I am Black Madden (Having fun now, not serious). SB victories are the ultimate prize but in no way do they determine greatness. Performance determines greatness for any position far better than SB victories, even QB, now because of the importance of the QB position performance usually has a strong correlation with winning and losing. Yet there are QBs that didn't win SBs that were great. And there are SB winning QB's that aren't great. The Redskins won 3 SBs with good/mediocre but not great QBs; 2012 Ravens are a prime example as were the 2000 Ravens that greatness at QB is unnecessary for a SB victory; the Giants first 2 SBs were won with good but not great QB play.

    I describe Eli's clutch factor as his most outstanding quality. The Giants performance has mirrored his play in their inconsistency so we've had 2 seasons out of the past 5 years where he had the opportunity to prove his clutch factor and the other 3 season in those 5 years we've missed the playoffs entirely. In our most pressure filled moments during playoff runs when the drama is at it's highest he has come through. Looking at his career in its entirety its been very inconsistent and filled with spotty play, save 2011.

    Elite is a word with a legitimate place and makes good convo during the offseason. I don't know how anybody could look at Eli's career and say his play is on par with AR, Brady. His inconsistency takes him out of that category.

    I have Eli ranked fifth among active QBs but there is a considerable gap between Eli and #4.
    After all that, and we both say--in slightly differing terms--Eli is in the top 5 of current QBs. Alrighty, then. Glad to hear it.

    As for your points about some good QBs don't win SBs, and some "bad" (I prefer "mediocre") QBs do win SBs--I 've already addressed that in a few different threads, and i'm pretty certain I addressed it here.

    And, as I've said in each case, those are exceptions to the rule. As such, they don't really belong in the debate--at least not in any meaningful way.

    They occur, yes, but infrequently. If you just go back the last 23 years (1990), how many QBs were on a winning SB team, but would be considered by most as mediocre? Hofstettler, Ripkin, Dilfer, Brad Johnson? Four out of twenty three--about 1 out of every 6 SBs (17%) had mediocre careers that included a magical run one year. If you look at all 47 SBs, that 17% will be fairly accurate for the entire era to date--meaning there have been about 7-9 QBs who won SBs who would not be considered very good QBs. And 1 of them (Plunkett) even won 2!

    My biggest complaint in all these "who's an elite QB" threads is not about whether one agrees if Eli is or is not Elite. My complaint is much more about those who equate Rodgers to--or even better!!--than Brady and Peyton. Even the idea of comparing a QB of 5 seasons to 2 QBs who have guaranteed reservations in the HOF and are still performing at their highest level (and superior to virtually everyone else) after 13 and 15 seasons, respectively, I find offensive.

  10. #300
    All-Pro B&RWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen46 View Post
    After all that, and we both say--in slightly differing terms--Eli is in the top 5 of current QBs. Alrighty, then. Glad to hear it.

    As for your points about some good QBs don't win SBs, and some "bad" (I prefer "mediocre") QBs do win SBs--I 've already addressed that in a few different threads, and i'm pretty certain I addressed it here.

    And, as I've said in each case, those are exceptions to the rule. As such, they don't really belong in the debate--at least not in any meaningful way.

    They occur, yes, but infrequently. If you just go back the last 23 years (1990), how many QBs were on a winning SB team, but would be considered by most as mediocre? Hofstettler, Ripkin, Dilfer, Brad Johnson? Four out of twenty three--about 1 out of every 6 SBs (17%) had mediocre careers that included a magical run one year. If you look at all 47 SBs, that 17% will be fairly accurate for the entire era to date--meaning there have been about 7-9 QBs who won SBs who would not be considered very good QBs. And 1 of them (Plunkett) even won 2!

    My biggest complaint in all these "who's an elite QB" threads is not about whether one agrees if Eli is or is not Elite. My complaint is much more about those who equate Rodgers to--or even better!!--than Brady and Peyton. Even the idea of comparing a QB of 5 seasons to 2 QBs who have guaranteed reservations in the HOF and are still performing at their highest level (and superior to virtually everyone else) after 13 and 15 seasons, respectively, I find offensive.
    People are comparing AR's first 5 years with Brady and Peyton's first 5 years. In that comparison he has outperformed them. But he also had a much longer grooming process because of Favre. AR is the best in the game right now. Regardless of who has the most SBs if I were to start a team right now I'd pick AR over all active QB's.

    Your rule is bogus. C'mon dude 17% of anything is a significant enough amount to discredit any rule of thumb. Besides you left out McMahan and Flacco neither of which are great or very good, they are/ were above average. Although to be honest I thought Hostetler and Brad Johnson were both better than mediocre, but far from great.
    Last edited by B&RWarrior; 02-18-2013 at 03:12 AM.

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