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  1. #41
    All-Pro Delicreep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Give me a player who wants to start and play instead of "babysitting" another player any day of the week.
    Collins went on to play some very good football for several years after leaving us.

    Why on earth would you conclude that one guy is a "better man" than another because he wants to play football., and not just accept a role as second fiddle.
    I don't get your point at all.
    Really?

    OK...no one anywhere on the planet, including Warner and Collins, had any expectation that Eli was going to start game 1 of his first season. It is precisely why they were looking for a vet. But everyone on the planet knew that the Gmen would be looking for any reason to put Eli in.

    Whoever took that job damn well knew that he was going to have to play lights out to keep that job*.
    Not "good enough", not "OK", not "passable" - lights out.

    Takes a strong man to stand there and say "I can do this"
    Warner did that.
    Collins would not.

    Not so much a knock on Collins as a pat on the back to Warner.


    *And I know that you are fond of pointing out Warner's record with the Giants, but I don't think even Harooni would use the term "lights out". I would have kept him in, as would you, but it kinda proves my point, doesn't it?

    And I probably should have put "babysitting" in quotes as you did, since it is the exact word Collins used.
    Last edited by Delicreep; 02-22-2013 at 12:36 PM.
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  2. #42
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delicreep View Post
    Really?

    OK...no one anywhere on the planet, including Warner and Collins, had any expectation that Eli was going to start game 1 of his first season. It is precisely why they were looking for a vet. But everyone on the planet knew that the Gmen would be looking for any reason to put Eli in.

    Whoever took that job damn well knew that he was going to have to play lights out to keep that job*.
    Not "good enough", not "OK", not "passable" - lights out.

    Takes a strong man to stand there and say "I can do this"
    Warner did that.
    Collins would not.

    Not so much a knock on Collins as a pat on the back to Warner.


    *And I know that you are fond of pointing out Warner's record with the Giants, but I don't think even Harooni would use the term "lights out". I would have kept him in, as would you, but it kinda proves my point, doesn't it?
    Who used the term "lights out"?

    And Ernie called Collins into his office, thold him he had to take a pay cut. All this right after they traded the store for Eli. If I'm a QB who still thinks he can play...I say release me.
    And it has nothing to do with not being a "better man".
    Get well soon 80.

  3. #43
    All-Pro Delicreep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Who used the term "lights out"?

    And Ernie called Collins into his office, thold him he had to take a pay cut. All this right after they traded the store for Eli. If I'm a QB who still thinks he can play...I say release me.
    And it has nothing to do with not being a "better man".
    ummm...I used the term "lights out". As in the only way Collins/Warner was going to keep that job was to play lights out.
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  4. #44
    All-Pro gmen46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    1. Pittsburgh was NOT the eventual SB winner.
    2. Eli played better the last 2 weeks. There is no doubt. He played well against Cincy as well. But a poster claimed that the 2004 version of Eli was better than the 2004 version of Warner and I completely disagree.
    By ANY standard, Warner was a far better QB than Eli in 2004.
    We were 5-4 vs. 1-6. He had afar better production than Eli.

    And Ben had 316 yards in that game vs. 182 for Eli and won the game on the road. (if winning counts)
    Well, the Steelers were the eventual SB winner. It just took another season to do so (ok, I got a little ahead of myself in my enthusiasm). But they were a 12-1 team when they played us that year, so point is basically the same.

    I agree with your point about the 2004 Eli vs Warner comparison. That comment was a stretch, to say the least, and as such, you'll noticed I didn't bother to even address that.

    And in my post I acknowledged Ben had more yards than Eli, but it is also true that Eli was more efficient (higher comp %, more TDs, more TDs-to-int ratio).
    My point--besides my impulse to challenge your impulse to critique Eli at every opportunity--is that the Ravens game, in the grand scheme of Eli's rookie season and in the grand scheme of his career, meant little-to-nothing regarding his status as QB,

    He was less than stellar his rookie season. But he also showed flashes--as you acknowledge--of what was to come, during his rookie year.

    Sure, there were plenty of fans (maybe even including yourself) who were already freaking out about Eli's draft selection at that early stage. For that matter, right up until SB XLVI (and even now, absurdly enough, there are some), plenty of Giants fans who also criticized Eli's "body language", his facial expressions, his running out the play clock, his physique, what he ate for lunch, etc, etc. Meant nothing then, means nothing now.

    There just happens to be a lot of fans these days who believe a superior QB should look only a certain way, and should throw for more yards than anyone else, in order to be considered a great QB in the NFL. I'm not accusing you, MS, of being such a fan, I'm succumbing to a rant impulse. I'll stop in a second.

    At the risk of everyone taking this the wrong way, have these fans actually seen Montana? He certainly did not "look" like a pro QB. Even he admitted he was no physical specimen; Jerry Rice used to tease him about his skinny legs. Yet he was a true "gamer", was fearless in the most adverse situations, was blessed with self confidence and the uncanny ability to adjust on the fly.

    Though not quite as blessed as Joe, Simms had many of those qualities, only without WRs of the talent of Rice, Taylor. The best example of Simms showing those qualities was in the biggest game of his life.

    And though Eli is quite different from Montana of course, and he doesn't have all the trophies and many other attributes of him, he does show some of those qualities--his "gamer" abilities being foremost among them.

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  5. #45
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    I'm surprised that people expected Kurt to shut his mouth when his job was given to Eli. This is a guy who had been to the super bowl twice, won once, and went a third time after his stint here. Kurt thought(and rightfully so) that when he came here that he would be leading the offense for years to come, he wasn't under the impression that his job would consist of mentoring the new guy from the sidelines. Kurt most certainly was a better player than Eli was back in '04 so I can completely understand where he is coming from.

  6. #46
    All-Pro Delicreep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    Who used the term "lights out"?

    And Ernie called Collins into his office, thold him he had to take a pay cut. All this right after they traded the store for Eli. If I'm a QB who still thinks he can play...I say release me.
    And it has nothing to do with not being a "better man".
    Sorry, I forgot he other part of your post:
    He actually moved on to being the back-up in Oakland (only getting in later that year after Gannon was injured. He started the following year but was yanked mid season)

    His salary was well more than 2 million less than his number with the Gmen.

    "A few days after that trade, even though Giants General Manager Ernie Accorsi said he laid out a deal in which Collins would still make $7 million this season, Collins chose to move on and avoid being the one pushed out in favor of a rookie."

    http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/25/sp...e-raiders.html

    We done here?
    Last edited by Delicreep; 02-22-2013 at 01:20 PM.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    2004 Giants with Warner: .......5 wins 4 losses
    2004 Giants with Manning:.... 1 win 6 losses.
    So when Eli loses, it's fair to compare records.

    But when Eli wins 2 SBs, it's a team game all of a sudden.

    You could just point out Eli's rookie stats, and I'd agree with you that he was terrible his rookie year, but your double standard is sickening.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by 4thand1 View Post
    So when Eli loses, it's fair to compare records.

    But when Eli wins 2 SBs, it's a team game all of a sudden.

    You could just point out Eli's rookie stats, and I'd agree with you that he was terrible his rookie year, but your double standard is sickening.
    How many screen names do some of you people have? Jeebus.

  9. #49
    All-Pro jomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gumby74 View Post
    How many screen names do some of you people have? Jeebus.
    lol I thought it was just me who thought that.
    No one remembers who came in second.

  10. #50
    Me too when I saw the 1 post. We have become skeptical.

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