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  1. #131
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drez View Post
    Yeah, I'd say our line right now is around a 4 or so, or more specifically, LT: 7
    LG:4.5-5
    C:3
    RG: 4
    RT: If Diehl is starting, 2, if not it's a complete ?

    That averages out to be 4.2. There is the possibility that Snee may return a little closer to his old self, which even with Diehl starting could bring our line up to about a 5. However, Boothe is only on a 1 year deal and Snee's '14 is voidable. We definitely need to think about replacements at L/RG and potentially RT, saying Brewer can't step up to the plate. We're pot committed on Baas for the time being, so our only hope there is that he can get better when he's healthy.

    To answer your question, I'd like to see our line to be around a 6 or so.
    Then, just by this numerical system, our OL would have to collectively improve by ten points. In order for that to efficiently happen, we'd have to either drastically improve our RT, or significantly improve two positions.

    And that's only to get it to average/good.

    I think the expectation/resource ratio is being drastically underestimated. Of course, this is only an abstract demonstration (and probably a poorly constructed one, at that), but the situation is a catch-22. We can devote our first round pick to an OL, in hopes of making it average, but then we still concede that it's Eli whose in charge of masking an average line, and Cruz and Nicks who need to stay healthy. After all, we can't expect too win because of an average line. We can devote a mid round pick, but that's not gonna do us much this year, and it's hard to say what it'll do for us in the future.

    I'm all for strengthening a weak unit on our offense, especially when it protects our franchise QB, but I'm not willing to try to kill an ant with a sledgehammer to solve this offense's problems. There's no fixed boundaries for offensive/defensive unit spending, but I still want this team's resources optimized, and our defense needs some fresh talent badly.

    After this year, Tuck is gone, and I don't know what the plans are with Kiwi. Cullen Jenkins got three years, but that could easily be a one year deal. Rogers is gone, and Austin is a question mark. The future outlook for our DL is equally grim.

    Again, it's gonna come down to who is on the board, but if OG/OT and an equally rated DE/DT/CB is there, I hope they choose the latter.

  2. #132
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    How much can we reasonably expect one player to improve a weak unit? If he's not an all-pro right tackle from day one, I don't think there will be much improvement. If he's not an all-pro left guard day one, then not much at all.

    Let's just say it is Warmack though, and he is a mauling behemoth from rookie minicamp, if we pair him up with Beatty on the left side, we're really just upgrading our second best lineman. We can put him at right guard, but then we'd have to bench a ten million dollar guard, or make him switch sides for the first time in his career for a rookie; that's not only unlikely, but it's recipe for disaster.

  3. #133
    All-Pro Drez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen0820 View Post
    Then, just by this numerical system, our OL would have to collectively improve by ten points. In order for that to efficiently happen, we'd have to either drastically improve our RT, or significantly improve two positions.

    And that's only to get it to average/good.

    I think the expectation/resource ratio is being drastically underestimated. Of course, this is only an abstract demonstration (and probably a poorly constructed one, at that), but the situation is a catch-22. We can devote our first round pick to an OL, in hopes of making it average, but then we still concede that it's Eli whose in charge of masking an average line, and Cruz and Nicks who need to stay healthy. After all, we can't expect too win because of an average line. We can devote a mid round pick, but that's not gonna do us much this year, and it's hard to say what it'll do for us in the future.

    I'm all for strengthening a weak unit on our offense, especially when it protects our franchise QB, but I'm not willing to try to kill an ant with a sledgehammer to solve this offense's problems. There's no fixed boundaries for offensive/defensive unit spending, but I still want this team's resources optimized, and our defense needs some fresh talent badly.

    After this year, Tuck is gone, and I don't know what the plans are with Kiwi. Cullen Jenkins got three years, but that could easily be a one year deal. Rogers is gone, and Austin is a question mark. The future outlook for our DL is equally grim.

    Again, it's gonna come down to who is on the board, but if OG/OT and an equally rated DE/DT/CB is there, I hope they choose the latter.
    I see what you're saying, and don't necessarily disagree with it, either. I'd like to see us draft an OL somewhere in the first 3 rounds. The other 2 picks I'd like to see at least one DL and then the best defensive player available (preferably another DL or CB; while we could use improvement in the LB corps, I don't see it as being as important as the front 4 and back 4).

    Is it strange that I think if we try upgrading our OL in the draft that we choose a LG? My logic being I'd rather have a dominant side of the line than having the talent being spread out in a hodge-podge fashion.

    All those areas are big enough concerns where I don't think you can real make a big fuss, either way.

  4. #134
    All-Pro Drez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen0820 View Post
    How much can we reasonably expect one player to improve a weak unit? If he's not an all-pro right tackle from day one, I don't think there will be much improvement. If he's not an all-pro left guard day one, then not much at all.

    Let's just say it is Warmack though, and he is a mauling behemoth from rookie minicamp, if we pair him up with Beatty on the left side, we're really just upgrading our second best lineman. We can put him at right guard, but then we'd have to bench a ten million dollar guard, or make him switch sides for the first time in his career for a rookie; that's not only unlikely, but it's recipe for disaster.
    Right, we'd be upgrading our LG, but Boothe would likely be an upgrade from Diehl at RT (my thought being, Boothe can play LT, so I assume he can play at RT). So, we'd upgrade our second best lineman, and also our worst. Depending on what Warmack plays at, that could put us up in the 5-6 range.

  5. #135
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    I anticipate a good-great OL before Beatty's contract is up. It'll require patience, but with Eli, and our skill players, the transition is likely to be progressive.

    As for the defense: crisis if we don't address it heavily, specifically on the DL. Luckily, we have a cornerstone/blue-chip in JPP.

  6. #136
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drez View Post
    Right, we'd be upgrading our LG, but Boothe would likely be an upgrade from Diehl at RT (my thought being, Boothe can play LT, so I assume he can play at RT). So, we'd upgrade our second best lineman, and also our worst. Depending on what Warmack plays at, that could put us up in the 5-6 range.
    Boothe hasn't ever played LT, and I'm willing to say that Diehl is a better RT than Boothe.

    In fact, I'll cry if I ever see Boothe play RT again!

  7. #137
    All-Pro Drez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen0820 View Post
    Boothe hasn't ever played LT, and I'm willing to say that Diehl is a better RT than Boothe.

    In fact, I'll cry if I ever see Boothe play RT again!
    I thought Boothe played some LT at some point in '11. In that case, my bad.

  8. #138
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drez View Post
    I thought Boothe played some LT at some point in '11. In that case, my bad.
    No, but he did play a little bit of center. He struggles snapping unless Eli's in the gun, otherwise he's not too bad.

    Boothe came in for RT in 2008 against the Cowboys, and was absolutely lit up. Ware/Ellis had a field day, and I don't think he's ever played tackle since.

  9. #139
    All-Pro Drez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen0820 View Post
    No, but he did play a little bit of center. He struggles snapping unless Eli's in the gun, otherwise he's not too bad.

    Boothe came in for RT in 2008 against the Cowboys, and was absolutely lit up. Ware/Ellis had a field day, and I don't think he's ever played tackle since.
    2008 was a long time ago, though. However, my assumption above was based on thinking he had played LT for a game or two in 2011. Maybe I was confusing him with Andrews.

  10. #140
    All-Pro gmen0820's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drez View Post
    2008 was a long time ago, though. However, my assumption above was based on thinking he had played LT for a game or two in 2011. Maybe I was confusing him with Andrews.
    It's a shame Andrews had the back issues. If he were healthy, we would have a top OL right now with him and Beatty as our bookend Tackles.

    Boothe is just too slow for tackle. I'm with you on hoping that Brewer can come in and be the guy.

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