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Thread: Giant Mistakes!

  1. #31
    The Eli to Steve Smith correlation doesn't really shed any light either. Was Steve Smith's success with Eli, due to Eli? Was his failure post-Eli, due to missing Eli's "blessed touch?" Unfortunately, SS's injury makes it impossible to judge.

    We can say that in the Eli era, no ex-Giant receiver has matched their success here elsewhere, though Manningham is coming closer than most. However, you can say the same for RBs. That makes it a bit sketchy.

    Ultimately, I would say it's best to reserve judgment until the body of work is complete, as gmen46 advises.
    the "realist" is a lazy piece of crap that works on his tan while sipping a margarita,
    the pessimist changes the sails while complaining about the lazy piece of crap,
    and the optimist changes the sails while hoping the lazy piece of crap will start to do his share of the work.

  2. #32
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen46 View Post
    Not going to "kill" you for your Eli opinions, but it's time you take responsibility for your share of the Eli "nonsense".

    Yes, there can be a bit of over-adoration of Eli by some fans on this board at times. I'm probably guilty of it myself on occasion. But there is a huge reality gap between the "over praising" of Eli and your own "let's be real" appraisal of Eli.

    Just as some fans will go out of their way to praise Eli a little too much at times, you go out of your way to hammer home how "average" Eli can be. Even though you usually qualify the hammer with how much you "appreciate" and you "love" what has been good about him as our QB.

    The truth about Eli--as I see it--is that he resides somewhere within that reality gap, although closer to arguably the "best Giants QB in Giants history" than to the "he's just a decent QB" you are so insistent to claim.

    What we have here is "nonsense" about Eli--as you call it--on both sides of the constant Eli debate.

    To praise Eli for what he has accomplished in his career, and for what he has brought to the Giants is not to "bow" to him in "lock step" any more than your own insistence upon painting him as an "ok" QB who has done some great things as a Giant QB is being "real" when describing his career.

    A big part of this ongoing debate about Eli on this board has been perverted and perpetrated by the incomprehensible chronic need by too many fans to declare one QB or another as "elite". That one word appears to convert otherwise rational fans into a frenzy of hyperbole--one way or another.

    That entire "elite" discussion about current QBs should be banished--or at least suspended --until after a player has retired, in my opinion. The very word has a toxic effect on most sane, logical discussion concerning a pro QB, almost like the effects of a toxic drug.

    I admit I'm ranting a bit here, but really, MS, you are just as guilty of going over the top to keep praise of Eli grounded to the "real" as certain others are guilty of going over the top in their constant "blind" praise of him.

    The reality, as I see it, about Eli is that he is still in the middle of his career and as such is still in his prime. In his 9 years so far he has accomplished much as a Giant QB (as I know you agree), certainly more than any other Giants QB in their first 9 seasons as a pro (as you may or may not agree).

    Because his career is far from over, and based upon what he's accomplished to date, there is a very real potential for Eli to tie or set a couple significant records--certainly franchise records, at the very least. The arc of his career, so far, clearly points to a very real possibility of ultimate selection to the HOF by the time his career is finished. That is not the career of an average QB.

    Can we not--as Giants fans-- drop, or at least dial back, the "all or nothing" approach to evaluating and judging Eli's abilities? Or would that be denying the "purpose of a Giants message board" as some here would have it?

    It's not the disagreement about any given player I'm talking about, but the insistence upon labeling a fan's understandable enthusiasm for a particular player's (ie, Eli's) very real abilities and contributions to the team (and even to the game itself) as being absurdly "adoring" or even of being a star ****er?

    For example, it's the traditional "does the QB make a WR succeed, or does the WR make the QB succeed?" question I find so fascinating in many of these Eli threads. This is a question that in truth has no single definitive answer. Like most "life questions" of this nature, the real answer can be one or the other--depending upon the individuals involved--and sometimes can be that both players need to be very good in order to succeed.

    Just looking at this past season, we have Michael Crabtree--in his attempt to explain why it took until his 4th season to finally show why he was a legit 1st round draft pick in 2009-- stating that Kaepernick was at long last the QB he needed to "showcase his (Crabtree's) true abilities" as a premier WR.

    Yet Manningham, with the same 2 Niners QBs that Crabtree worked with in 2012--
    - played in (12) and started (10) the identical number of games he did in 2011 with Eli, and had 3 more receptions in 2012 than in 2011
    - yet he had, excluding his 2008 rookie season when he only had 4 receptions, his career low in total yards in 2012 (449)
    - he had his career low in ave yards per catch (10.7)--vs his career ave of 13.7 yds
    - he had his career low in TDs (1)--vs his previous 3 yr ave of 6 TDs per season.

    So, did Kaepernick "make" Crabtree (while Manningham had his worst season of his last 4 years)?

    Or did Eli "make" Manningham? Is it possible Manningham ultimately missed Eli's "blessed touch" as you derisively describe it?

    Just the ramblings of a full time Giants fan concerning his full time "bowing adoration" of Eli the Manning -ificent.
    I don't think he's"just a decent" QB. I have never said that.
    I believe and have said that he's a very good QB, but not an all time great. Certainly I don't think he should be the subject of hero worship based on his on-field play.
    I do think he's a fine young man as far as I can tell.

    And to respond to your other point. Good QB's are helped by good WR's and good WR's are helped by good QB's.
    Great WR's like Larry Fitz can be horribly unproductive with the terrible QB situation he had this year. Conversely, Eli wasn't going to save Sinorice Moss or Ramses Barden.
    There is no "magical QB" out there who will make a WR's career. Unless he's Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And evn there, those guys benefit tremendously from great WR's.
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #33
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    The Eli to Steve Smith correlation doesn't really shed any light either. Was Steve Smith's success with Eli, due to Eli? Was his failure post-Eli, due to missing Eli's "blessed touch?" Unfortunately, SS's injury makes it impossible to judge.

    We can say that in the Eli era, no ex-Giant receiver has matched their success here elsewhere, though Manningham is coming closer than most. However, you can say the same for RBs. That makes it a bit sketchy.

    Ultimately, I would say it's best to reserve judgment until the body of work is complete, as gmen46 advises.
    Former players usually don't do better or even as well in their next teams. If they did they probably wouldn't have had to leave. Its not always true but it often is.
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  4. #34
    All-Pro GameTime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmen46 View Post
    Not going to "kill" you for your Eli opinions, but it's time you take responsibility for your share of the Eli "nonsense".

    Yes, there can be a bit of over-adoration of Eli by some fans on this board at times. I'm probably guilty of it myself on occasion. But there is a huge reality gap between the "over praising" of Eli and your own "let's be real" appraisal of Eli.

    Just as some fans will go out of their way to praise Eli a little too much at times, you go out of your way to hammer home how "average" Eli can be. Even though you usually qualify the hammer with how much you "appreciate" and you "love" what has been good about him as our QB.

    The truth about Eli--as I see it--is that he resides somewhere within that reality gap, although closer to arguably the "best Giants QB in Giants history" than to the "he's just a decent QB" you are so insistent to claim.

    What we have here is "nonsense" about Eli--as you call it--on both sides of the constant Eli debate.

    To praise Eli for what he has accomplished in his career, and for what he has brought to the Giants is not to "bow" to him in "lock step" any more than your own insistence upon painting him as an "ok" QB who has done some great things as a Giant QB is being "real" when describing his career.

    A big part of this ongoing debate about Eli on this board has been perverted and perpetrated by the incomprehensible chronic need by too many fans to declare one QB or another as "elite". That one word appears to convert otherwise rational fans into a frenzy of hyperbole--one way or another.

    That entire "elite" discussion about current QBs should be banished--or at least suspended --until after a player has retired, in my opinion. The very word has a toxic effect on most sane, logical discussion concerning a pro QB, almost like the effects of a toxic drug.

    I admit I'm ranting a bit here, but really, MS, you are just as guilty of going over the top to keep praise of Eli grounded to the "real" as certain others are guilty of going over the top in their constant "blind" praise of him.

    The reality, as I see it, about Eli is that he is still in the middle of his career and as such is still in his prime. In his 9 years so far he has accomplished much as a Giant QB (as I know you agree), certainly more than any other Giants QB in their first 9 seasons as a pro (as you may or may not agree).

    Because his career is far from over, and based upon what he's accomplished to date, there is a very real potential for Eli to tie or set a couple significant records--certainly franchise records, at the very least. The arc of his career, so far, clearly points to a very real possibility of ultimate selection to the HOF by the time his career is finished. That is not the career of an average QB.

    Can we not--as Giants fans-- drop, or at least dial back, the "all or nothing" approach to evaluating and judging Eli's abilities? Or would that be denying the "purpose of a Giants message board" as some here would have it?

    It's not the disagreement about any given player I'm talking about, but the insistence upon labeling a fan's understandable enthusiasm for a particular player's (ie, Eli's) very real abilities and contributions to the team (and even to the game itself) as being absurdly "adoring" or even of being a star ****er?

    For example, it's the traditional "does the QB make a WR succeed, or does the WR make the QB succeed?" question I find so fascinating in many of these Eli threads. This is a question that in truth has no single definitive answer. Like most "life questions" of this nature, the real answer can be one or the other--depending upon the individuals involved--and sometimes can be that both players need to be very good in order to succeed.

    Just looking at this past season, we have Michael Crabtree--in his attempt to explain why it took until his 4th season to finally show why he was a legit 1st round draft pick in 2009-- stating that Kaepernick was at long last the QB he needed to "showcase his (Crabtree's) true abilities" as a premier WR.

    Yet Manningham, with the same 2 Niners QBs that Crabtree worked with in 2012--
    - played in (12) and started (10) the identical number of games he did in 2011 with Eli, and had 3 more receptions in 2012 than in 2011
    - yet he had, excluding his 2008 rookie season when he only had 4 receptions, his career low in total yards in 2012 (449)
    - he had his career low in ave yards per catch (10.7)--vs his career ave of 13.7 yds
    - he had his career low in TDs (1)--vs his previous 3 yr ave of 6 TDs per season.

    So, did Kaepernick "make" Crabtree (while Manningham had his worst season of his last 4 years)?

    Or did Eli "make" Manningham? Is it possible Manningham ultimately missed Eli's "blessed touch" as you derisively describe it?

    Just the ramblings of a full time Giants fan concerning his full time "bowing adoration" of Eli the Manning -ificent.
    if you have to explain it that much then there are issues....IMO..
    very simple. Eli is a very good QB who has had great moments with the recievers he has had......done deal arguement over.....
    "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
    You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

  5. #35
    All-Pro Morehead State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameTime View Post
    if you have to explain it that much then there are issues....IMO..
    very simple. Eli is a very good QB who has had great moments with the recievers he has had......done deal arguement over.....
    I can live with that.



    Except the "done" part. It will never be over until I say its over!!!
    "Phil Simms is the greatest QB in Giants history" ........Mahatma Gandhi

  6. #36
    All-Pro GameTime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morehead State View Post
    I can live with that.



    Except the "done" part. It will never be over until I say its over!!!
    even then it wont be over.....
    I am so happy you can live with that. Now I can relax for the rest of the weekend....
    "Measure Twice......Cut Once"
    You couldn't be more full of **** if you were break dancing in a Port-a-Potty.......Kruunch

  7. #37
    wait..., what was this thread about again?

  8. #38
    All-Pro titwio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhpgiantsfan View Post
    " KNIBB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!!!!"
    So, you see, the puppy was like industry. In that, they were both lost in the woods. And nobody, especially the little boy - "society" - knew where to find 'em. Except that the puppy was a dog. But the industry, my friends, that was a revolution.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyGiants547 View Post
    Die Hard Giant Fan - Die Hard Rant!

    I want to preface this rant with my Eli Manning support since day 1!!! Also I put out my full admission of riding the Coughlin roller coater but fully respected him after Strahons comments breakdown and especially his NFL special which put him on the highest of pedestals - yes a die hard gMan fan (who in a brutal market) needed his personal story shared on the nefl network to seal the coffin for me. While I wish he he would have retired this past year and allow the giants to hire a new coach i accept and embrace him as our starting coach 2013 season, especially since in my opinion last year giants could have made it to the superbowl and won but the only explanation in my opinion is getting lazy. A recent 2 time wining team is filled with UN-hungry team mates (on 1 and two wins) slacking off. Im hoping, since my long term giant experience was a roller coaster of playoffs and season upsets i welcome the recent success.

    My main RANT... while i dont fault cruz for trying to get paid - I think he is gambling big time. Burress was removed form us after a humen error and hoped to return with major success. Had he returned to Eli he would have seen the promis land. He didn't.... Steve Smith wanted to get paid - no hard feelings - Eagles paid and the contract soared like an eagle. After his injury we wont see (which we did whitness for a period) his post Eli potential which was non existant with the great reborn VIck...... Im upset the Giants didnt hold Ballard and hope beckum will return. The Giants receiving core will be the best worst core in the league as will the running back setup...... It can go either way. Im frustrated Hixon may leave and while im confident cruz is a play on more funds which is respected receivers (which eli respecnts and understnads for great catch/throw stories to continue he needs to throw an aggressive ball into agressive coverage to a top level corner - long story short - all GIANTS top catches - past five years - while many will kick eli when down - whose stats are better? Which receivers fell off post eli pay day? I agree eli needs receivers but question the understanding of how receivers need to utilize eli! Shockey sucked post giants whining.... Steve smith sucked post giants whinning...... Cruz.....?
    Wow!.....the public school system is failing......

  10. #40
    All-Pro gmen46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoanokeFan View Post
    I prefer to think that QBs and receivers complement each other as Nicks and Cruz do and Hixon did with Eli. It's as much a two-way trust issue as anything else. That assumes talent on both ends, of course.
    Precisely.

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